Illusionary turning undead?

[garhkal]

Over on DF there's a # of threads talking about illusions and what you do/don't allow them to do, and 3 of them all have touched on the question
WOULD You allow a Phantasmal force of a priest, to turn undead?

So Who here would?

[McDeath]

Nope. A trick using illusion is not the same as the faith & power of a deity focused through a priest.

A phantasmal force of a priest turning phantasmal undead would be a fun trick.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Absolutely not. It's an illusion and not an actual priest, therefore it lacks the godly force, the divine grace, that allows priests to turn undead. I swear, those DF people are getting more stupid and illiterate by the day. It says right there in the damned spell description in plain, unambiguous English:

"Undead are immune"

So regardless of the fact that illusions of priests are not real, are not actual priests, and therefore do not channel diving power from any god (which is what allows the priest to turn undead), it clearly says that undead are immune. So even if the argument is that an illusion of a priest somehow has diving blessing (which it clearly does not) is true, it's made irrelevant by the fact that the spell itself says undead are immune, making the question moot.

[McDeath]

I think later editions or NON D&D games gave undead a "life sense" ability. This makes me wonder about commanded skeletons, zombies, and non-intelligent undead that are given commands to stay inert until an intruder does xyz in their presence (which I wonder how far exactly such undead can sense. Can a platoon of skeletons on lvl 10 "know & assemble" to confront a group of adventurers stepping at the entrance of that dungeon? I don't know the peculiars on that atm.

Is it only "LIVING" things they detect or can other controlled undead by an opponent of random constructs be immediately attacked? What about such undead programmed to say... wash the dishes, take cloaks & hats to put into closet, or stoke the fire place? [yeah, a little Jakalla bit or even Egg of the Phoenix influence there].

Life sense. Intelligent undead have a rather undying hatred for the living. They sense it! And they want to end it. I thought all undead had just a bit of the negative plane connection to them including the paradox ones that say positive like mummies or sun wights (d&d hollow world).

I don't always like how all undead are portrayed with their abilities and powers (vampires esp, ghouls to a lesser extent being confusing).

I really thought ALL undead were immune to mind affecting spells/effects but I'm rusty on that. I certainly don't think they'd be fooled by illusions. Maybe some are watching too much tv, movies, or reading fiction that depicts undead being like this. There are lots of rpgs and crpgs but in AD&D I'd think its pretty simple here.

I need to look at these threads i guess. Maybe I'll log in some day.... (and prolly get banned again. Yeesh).

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

I think later editions or NON D&D games gave undead a "life sense" ability. This makes me wonder about commanded skeletons, zombies, and non-intelligent undead that are given commands to stay inert until an intruder does xyz in their presence (which I wonder how far exactly such undead can sense. Can a platoon of skeletons on lvl 10 "know & assemble" to confront a group of adventurers stepping at the entrance of that dungeon? I don't know the peculiars on that atm.

I've never seen it specified, how they sense living things. I've always just interpreted it as being possible via the magic that animates them. They can be given simple commands like "assemble and attack anyone entering here", but if given complex commands "half of you assault from the front, the other half of you maneuver to flank the intruders from each side" tends to confuse them. That's pretty much skeletons in a nutshell in AD&D.

Is it only "LIVING" things they detect or can other controlled undead by an opponent of random constructs be immediately attacked? What about such undead programmed to say... wash the dishes, take cloaks & hats to put into closet, or stoke the fire place? [yeah, a little Jakalla bit or even Egg of the Phoenix influence there].

I'd say they can sense anything, living or undead. So say a PC cleric animates some skeletons or zombies to attack an evil wizard's tower protected by a group of skeletons - those guardian skeletons would attack anything approaching the tower whether those approaching are PCs, skeletons, zombies, etc.

Life sense. Intelligent undead have a rather undying hatred for the living. They sense it! And they want to end it. I thought all undead had just a bit of the negative plane connection to them including the paradox ones that say positive like mummies or sun wights (d&d hollow world).

First, remember that there is no paradox. The whole "mummies are animated by the Positive Material Plane" is a typo, which Gygax has confirmed. ALL undead are animated via the Negative Plane, none from the Positive Plane. I recall writing a huge debate about this at DF showing all the impossible and illogical problems created by sticking with the typo about mummies and the Positive Material Plane.

Worse yet, the idiots at DF are too stupid to even use their brains to think logically and actually argued with me that the entry for Vampires in the 2E MM was NOT a typo when it said that vampires:

"...exist in both the Positive and Negative Material Planes at the same time."



Anyone with a single active brain cell can see that's a typo, because if it channeled both the Positive and Negative Material Plane, it would explode just like a xag-ya and a xeg-yi meeting.

So we always remember to correct for typos. There are LOTs of them in D&D!

As far as undead hating the living, I was thinking about that a while back. I thought it made more sense that only evil aligned undead and/or free willed undead hate the living. What that basically boils down to is that skeletons and zombies (both of which are Neutral alignment) do not hate the living. Zombies attack the living simply to eat and therefore are just as Neutral (i.e. not Evil) as a pack of piranha or a shark. Skeletons likewise are mindless servants and Neutral. They simply obey orders, being automatons. In fact, in some adventures I've seen written, skeletons don't even attack the living unless the living violate certain terms dictated in the skeletons' orders (for example, they might stand idly by while the PCs explore a tomb, not attacking unless/until the PCs attempt to remove something from the tomb - things like that). I'd have to search for an example of that, but I do recall reading things like that several times. So Neutral undead like zombies and skeletons don't hate the living, in my games at least, while the Evil aligned/free willed undead (ghosts, spectres, vampires, ghouls, etc.) all hate the living and attack on sight or when possible.

I don't always like how all undead are portrayed with their abilities and powers (vampires esp, ghouls to a lesser extent being confusing).

I never liked how vampires drain levels by touch, so I always ruled that when a vampire "hits", that's actually a bite that drains levels. I mean, if it isn't biting and sucking blood, how is it a vampire? Why have a vampire with fangs if it doesn't need to use those fangs? So I've always ruled that a hit from a vampire constitutes a bite. Considering a round in AD&D is one minute long (and how a single round has been described as a series of feints and dodges and attempted blows), I've always considered a hit to mean that the vampire has finally grabbed hold of the victim and managed to get a bite long enough to drain enough blood and life force that it can drain levels. Otherwise, it's not really a vampire as we know the term.

But what's confusing about ghouls? Not sure what aspect you're referring to.

I really thought ALL undead were immune to mind affecting spells/effects but I'm rusty on that. I certainly don't think they'd be fooled by illusions. Maybe some are watching too much tv, movies, or reading fiction that depicts undead being like this. There are lots of rpgs and crpgs but in AD&D I'd think its pretty simple here.

I can't off the top of my head think of any undead that are affected by charms, sleep, or other mind affecting spells. If there are any I've forgotten, I would just rule that they are immune regardless of the write up. Pretty much all undead are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death and cold type spells as well as poisons. As for illusions, in the 2E PHB, it says:

"Undead are generally immune to illusions, but they are vulnerable to quasi-real effects, most of which start to appear in the 4th level spell list."

- PHB, pg. 130

They're talking about spells that use substance from the Plane of Shadow to create semi-real illusions. So for example, a wizard could use minor creation, an illusion/phantasm spell, to create an actual rope using wisps of material from the Plane of Shadow, and use that rope to tie up a zombie (for the duration of the spell). However, a spell like phantasmal killer, which is not semi-real, would not affect the undead. Both are 4th level spells.

I don't think it's the tv influence. I think that when these arguments come up at DF, it's because most of the people there are arrogant and consider themselves "D&D Scholars" and are so filled with egotistical self-importance that they argue things when they clearly haven't read the rules or have forgotten them, but think they know it all. I've experienced a lot of that over there. And none of them will EVER admit when they're wrong, under any circumstances, no matter how foolish it makes them look. Instead, they'll wait for their sycophant buddies to agree with them and make themselves look even more foolish. As in the "vampires exist in both the Positive and Negative Material Planes at the same time" foolishness they tried arguing with me. It was a clear case of them knowing I was right, but because I'm Halaster, they simply have to argue the opposite of what I'm saying. A truly pathetic crowd over there.

I need to look at these threads i guess. Maybe I'll log in some day.... (and prolly get banned again. Yeesh).

I'd go out with a bang and spam the fuck out of every forum thread on every forum on that way out. I did that once, in the middle of the night. God did it piss them off!

[McDeath]

I think I prefer vampires drinking blood and draining your constitution over time and will. I just saw a good B/W of a non-vampire but damn close called

"The Thing that couldn't die.

Damn, that was a nifty take on the ever living. He was cursed and even with a separated head was alive. It could charm and control minds to those who didn't wear an amulet of the fluer de ris (sp). Close to oh.. a vampire or male p?nanggalan in a way. He was apparently a servant to Satan bent on destroying the world.

Ghouls... I sort of confused them with cannibals and hungry zombies. Its rather their method of making more ghouls. Assuming they don't eat too much of the body and ruin it I can't recall a definitive method for ghouls to come into existence.

1. if using the old vampire method then one could become a ghoul under a vampire or a vampyre

2. Ghouls killing you and you rise up.

3. A curse where you become a cannibal then turn into a ghoul perhaps from dying by eating the dead.

4. Dying from some sort of disease inflicted by undead.

5. Demons creating them (esp lords of undead or ghouls).

I'm sure there are a few others esp since 2e and ghoul lords etc.