Strange info found in MMII

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was reading through (and outlining - I love my fluorescent markers!) the 1E Monster Manual II and I came across a very strange and quirky point that I never really paid attention to before.

Under the description for the yochlol, I found this strange, bizarre line:

"If they do not take mates, yochlol have an effective armor class of -10."

- MMII, pg. 130

WTF? What does that even mean? "Take mates"? They're demons! Since when do demons "mate"? The description says nothing else on the matter of mating. And how the hell - indeed why the hell - would being "mated" have an effect on its armor class? I've scoured every source I have on yochlols, and this line is just totally puzzling and nonsensical.

Very, very strange!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

The storoper changed quite a lot between 1E and 2E.

In 2E, storopers use their tentacles to attack. On a hit, the victim loses STR, just as it would if suffering an attack by a roper. The storoper, however, can also inject venom that causes paralysis.

In 1E, the storoper was much different (and I think a lot cooler!). On a hit and once the venom is injected (no saving throw), the victim is paralyzed and appears to be petrified. One round later the victim recovers but is under the control of the storoper and will fight for it! Once the storoper is killed, the venom takes 10 turns to wear off.

Since I play a 1E/2E hybrid game, I use the better presentation of any given monster - either the 1E or the 2E version - whichever I like best. I think I like the 1E storoper quite a bit more!

[McDeath]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yochlol

It doesn't really answer the question either. I doubt dragon mag does either. As to the auto fail save from the storoper.... that sucks imho. I like saves and the monster isn't an epic tier type mob. Eh, I dunno. Small group is destroyed I guess. A pack of these fuckers ends the PCs careers.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I don't think there is an "answer", per se. It just seems to be some sort of bizarre typo, as best I can figure out. Logically, what would being mated or not have to do with AC? It makes no sense at all, on any level. Just weird tidbits that somehow got into the text that no one seems to have a clue as to why.

I kinda like the no-save myself. Remember, it only gets to use the venom on its first two hits. So it can only affect 2 PCs at most. I love situations like this where there is no easy solution. Do the other PCs cast dispel magic on their controlled team mates? They may think it's a magical control, after all. Will they guess it's a venom and cast neutralize poison (which I would say would immediately free their team mates)? And remember, it's a solitary monster - only one appearing, not a group. So most parties should survive. I like the uniqueness of the monster's attacks controlling party members - it's something unusual and different. But yeah, if you sent out a pack of them, the party is toast! TPK, easily.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I've also never understood why damage done by a clay golem can only be healed by a heal spell cast by a 17th level cleric. 17th level clerics are pretty fucking rare in any sane game. There may be none to be found for hundreds, maybe even thousands of miles - especially in 1E, where name level (9th) was considered relatively high level. And not all of them will have heal as a spell. It may even be worse in 2E because you have specialty priests, so not only do you have to find a very high level (17th level) priest, you also have to find one that worships a god that grants major sphere access to the healing sphere so he can even have the spell!

I've heard some arguments for this sort of damage and why it is that way, but none that ever made sense to me. Unless maybe some of you can recap some of the arguments for it and see if it makes sense. I just don't remember any that hit the mark where I said "Oh, ok, that makes sense!".

[McDeath]

Jew magic? What is clay golems also wore Tefillin (sometimes called phylacteries)?

Side comment made elsewhere was Jews are liches. Ok, enough of that racism. 5e will have my head.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

LMAO! Yeah, the golem come from Jewish mysticism. But don't give the WOTC idiots any ideas. They may come up with Monk/Paladin/Assassin Nazis to fight those "Jewish golems".

[garhkal]

I've also never understood why damage done by a clay golem can only be healed by a heal spell cast by a 17th level cleric. 17th level clerics are pretty fucking rare in any sane game.

I know over on DF< some felt that the rule,should have read
ONLY a cleric f 17th level casting a heal spell, can HEAL a clay golem's Damage (meaning what IT has taken, not what it has dished out)..
BUT TO ME, that makes LESS sense.. As that means even a cleric of the minimum level to make golems (13th iirc), cannot heal his OWN creation!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I agree with you, that makes even LESS sense. I just don't see what justification there is for a clay golem to do such intense damage that ONLY a heal spell cast ONLY by a priest of 17th level can heal it. That's quite a high bar when it comes to healing. No other monster does anything like that, that I can think off off hand. Clay golems seem to do the most "permanent" damage, so to speak. Not even dragons or other far more powerful monsters deal out damage to impossibly difficult to heal. And the xp for clay golems don't seem to bear out their lethality.

If you think about it, the clay golem is a party wrecker. They're tough enough to take several members of the party down to low enough hit points to where you have 2, 3, maybe 4 party members at half total hit points, maybe even far less, and no way to heal that until they seek out and find a 17th level priest of the correct alignment (similar to the PCs), and who is willing to cast such a high level spell. And if the party has different aligned PCs, they may well have to seek out several different 17th level clerics in order to heal the party. Clay golems are insanely dangerous, as written.

[garhkal]

So how do YOU rectify that?? Do you just remove the "must get a priest to heal that damage"?? Do you just lower it? OR as some i've seen do, do you make it that ONLY NATURAL healing works, to repair the lost HP.

[McDeath]

I'm still a little fuzzy on the can't heal lore here. A big why? Its getting hit by animated clay not radiactive clay or some cthulhu fright zone substance. I guess each golem had to have something unique. I never even paid it heed at first. Yet as I look (i won't post the hilite pics) I see in in 1e & 2e. I'll look at some Van Ritchen's Guides and some irl golem lore.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

I'm still a little fuzzy on the can't heal lore here. A big why? Its getting hit by animated clay not radiactive clay or some cthulhu fright zone substance. I guess each golem had to have something unique. I never even paid it heed at first. Yet as I look (i won't post the hilite pics) I see in in 1e & 2e. I'll look at some Van Ritchen's Guides and some irl golem lore.

This is one of the great mysteries of AD&D. I've never read or heard any argument for the rule that makes sense. And worse, it can't even be explained away by typos.

[McDeath]

Notice that the text mentions the angry elemental spirit.

The nature of this spirit is unknown, and has so far eluded the grasp of all researchers. What is known is that it is hostile to all prime material plane life forms, especially towards the spell caster that bound it to the golem.

Strangely enough, the clay golem can only be animated by priests.

Eh, guess I'll start here.

Golem is the name for an animated anthropomorphic being that is created entirely from inanimate matter, usually clay or mud. The origins of the golem are often traced back to the Sefer Yetzirah (Hebrew: “Book of Formation”), the earliest existing book on Jewish esotericism that deals with creation of the universe.

Golem wikipedia

Ooh... This bit about one growing bigger and bigger.

Rabbi Jacob Emden (d. 1776) elaborated on the story in a book published in 1748:

"As an aside, I'll mention here what I heard from my father's holy mouth regarding the Golem created by his ancestor, the Gaon R. Eliyahu Ba'al Shem of blessed memory. When the Gaon saw that the Golem was growing larger and larger, he feared that the Golem would destroy the universe. He then removed the Holy Name that was embedded on his forehead, thus causing him to disintegrate and return to dust. Nonetheless, while he was engaged in extracting the Holy Name from him, the Golem injured him, scarring him on the face."

And the golem injured him scarring his face.....

Clay Boy variation

A Yiddish and Slavic folktale is the Clay Boy, which combines elements of the Golem and The Gingerbread Man, in which a lonely couple makes a child out of clay, with disastrous or comical consequences.[39] In one common Russian version, an older couple, whose children have left home, make a boy out of clay and dry him by their hearth. The Clay Boy comes to life; at first the couple is delighted and treats him like a real child, but the Clay Boy does not stop growing and eats all their food, then all their livestock, and then the Clay Boy eats his parents. The Clay Boy rampages through the village until he is smashed by a quick-thinking goat.

Cursed Wounds
Thread starterWhiplashbash Start dateJul 28, 2010
W
Whiplashbash
First Post
Jul 28, 2010
#1
Ok, another question for the group.
Please settle a debate with the group. A Clay Golem strikes a creature, such as a Troll or such which has regeneration. Does it ( the regenerating creature ) heal? I say no, because the text says "wounds will not heal naturally". Further, it is Extraordinary, not magical, so it is "natural" to the species in question. The other camp says that it is not fire, acid or some other contingent effect the damage is subdual and cannot go below 0. Please direct ( with RAW, if possible )

the Jester
the Jester
Legend
Jul 29, 2010
#6
I would rule that a troll only takes nonlethal damage from a clay golem, but that the nonlethal damage inflicted is cursed and will not regenerate.

Which means that a clay golem cannot straight up beat a troll to death, but can pummel it into a coma from which it will never wake.

Lol a comatose troll.

I just dunno. One could make two varieties

Anyway... to quote DF & TSR (the strategic review comentary)... an error in the typing of the creature & misinterpreting the sentences.
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/view ... hp?t=42989

Some believe it takes a heal spell by a 17th level priest to heal THE GOLEM. This makes absolute sense. Funny to this day they never corrected that through all editions.

Edit... reading that thread further makes me now think the "mistake" was left in intentionally. Meh.. w/e. Make a few variants and adjust xp accordingly.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

The fucktards at DF who insist it's a typo are the same morons who also insist that the notation about mummies getting their power from the Positive Material Plane is NOT a typo even though I proved it logically and even though Gygax flat out said it was a typo.

Apparently the libtards at DF can't make up their minds when or whether to take written text as holy, uncontested truth or when and whether not to.

I know the stuff about in Strategic Review is says that damage done to the clay golem could only be healed by a 17th level cleric using a heal spell. But Tim Kask and Rob Kuntz and I believe Gary himself insisted that no, it was changed for AD&D and did in fact pertain to the damage inflicted by the golem.

If it had said:

"Damage done by the clay golem can only..."

...then we could assume the word "by" was a typo when it should have read "to" (i.e. damage done to the golem.

But the fact that Tom and Rob and possibly Gary insist that it was indeed changed is born out by the detailed wording added to the text:

"Damage inflicted upon living matter by a clay golem is only repairable by means of a healing spell from a cleric of 17th or greater level."

Emphasis mine. It seems pretty definitive, and backs up what Tim and Rob claim about the change.

Either way, I still can't justify the clay golem inflicting damage that can only be healed by a 17th level cleric using heal without some logic behind it.