Some puzzling questions

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:44 am

Well, some interesting issues came up in tonight's game. Right now in this campaign I have one player playing 2 PCs and I have my own PC/NPC in the game as well. So three characters. Ranger, wizard, priest of Horus (the latter is mine).

Exploring a very dangerous mountain castle filthy with undead, and doing well (with some very close calls). However, we ended up in a room fighting several flesh golems. It was damned close, and we were all out of healing spells. We ended up needing to retreat with a cube of force, but the golems had the door blocked. So we had essentially 16 rounds to figure something out, or face annihilation at the hands of the flesh golems (we were as I said out of healing spells, low on total spells, and low on hit points).

Now it says in the DMG that the various golems are affected in certain ways by certain spells but ignore all other spells. For example, electricity heals flesh golems, while cold and fire slows them. They ignore all other spells.

But my player (who is relatively new to the game) asked:

"If I grease the stairs, why won't they slip and fall? Likewise if I use Evard's black tentacles, why won't they grab him?"

Damn good questions!

I never worried about this much over the years because most of my players (and all of my wizard players to this point) were experienced players and simply never brought such things up.

I can see magic missiles not hurting the flesh golem, or acid arrow, or what have you. Targeted attacks where the magic affects the golem directly.

But really, why would a flesh golem not slip on stairs that were magically greased? Would he not fall into a hole formed by a dig spell? If you formed a prismatic sphere, would he be able to simply "ignore" the effects and walk through it?

Really when they say "all other spells are ignored", what does that mean? Because to me, ignoring the spell and ignoring the effects of the spell are two different things. If we take "all other spells are ignored" to mean that no other spell has any effect either direct or indirect, then we come upon illogical rulings such as golems being able to ignore areas of reversed gravity, being able to walk without slipping on greased stairs, being able to walk across the open air above a pit created using a dig spell, being able to simply walk thru a prismatic sphere unharmed. And a lot of that is nonsensical in game terms.

So how would you all rule this? How have you handled it? Don't get me wrong - I love my golems tough, immune, and deadly!

But the description as written is lacking.

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:52 am

As an addendum, let's say a flesh golem is chasing the party through the forest and the druid or ranger used entangle. All the plants and roots and shrubs are grabbing at the golem. It simply ignores all that? I never thought a Frankenstein monster was so all powerful!

So I think there has to be a careful examination of just what "ignores all other spells" really means.

Post by **Mira** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:52 am

To me, that falls into the same area as Magic Resistance, and as you pointed out, effects created by magic are sometimes different than the magic itself.

In our game, Ice Storm was used a lot, simply because it created balls of ice that came down and hit for damage. Magic Resistance was never a factor. (they wouldn't work on golems though, since the type of weapon needed to damage one wasn't part of it). We didn't have Grease until 1.5, but we would have allowed that to work on everything, if the golem were in the way of the spell, the spell might not get past it and create grease, but once the grease is there, it's a substance, not a spell. A golem can walk across a bridge created by Wall of Stone I would think.

While there can be plenty of things to debate about how it all works, I think it's sufficient for a GM to decide on a somewhat reasonable framework and say it works that way. As long as it can make sense, then I wouldn't allow someone to overturn it by finding a couple of holes. This is a game, not a legal battle!

Mira (Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it)

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:35 pm

Oh don't get me wrong. The player wasn't being a rules lawyer. I never tolerate that. But when he asked me if that would work, I thought: "Wow, that's a good question". I mean, I can see grease having to work, but I could also see the pros and cons of having say Evard's black tentacles work on the golem.

Although a lot of these come down to common sense, some of them do get me to raise an eyebrow.

Post by **slade88green** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:07 am

I would have to rule that such effects would work. I take the meaning of the statement of spells being ignored to mean damage is ignored. Some special effects could still come into play such as falling down with grease, being entangled or being grabbed (but not damaged) by an evards black tentacle.

Post by **Mira** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:29 pm

I would probably not let a black tentacle work, since it is formed out of magic, it's not a normal thing brought into being by magic. With grease, it's a substance you could find lying around, with entangle, the magic makes the vines and plants wrap around, but with the tentacles, you are creating something that has no place in the world and wouldn't be able to exist on its own. The magic is required to have it exist, where as the other two examples, the magic is only required to create something that CAN exist without magic, or wrap the greenery around something. Finding a grease spot or a vine-wrapped object isn't abnormal, a writhing tentacle attached to no creature is very much so.

Mira (He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged)

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:55 pm

I can see both methods, Slade's and Mira's. I think in most cases such as grease, dig, etc, it's obvious and easy to rule. Why would a golem not slip on a greasy surface? A golem has no ability to levitate, so it can't just ignore a pit that opens up beneath his feat.

I think where it becomes (or can become) challenging is in the case of stuff like Evard's black tentacles. While they exist and are not directed at the golem only, they are magical creations. So do we allow the spell to work? Comparing it to entangle, it would make sense that the tentacles would also be able to grab the golem, though maybe Slade's idea of not causing damage would be a fair middle ground.

Some spells just make me raise an eyebrow and say hmmm.