Ruins of UnderMountain products

[Sangalor]

I only have the original Ruins of UnderMountain boxed set and 2 of the modules (The Lost Level and Maddgoth's Castle).

I am interested in hearing your opinion(s) on the Ruins of UnderMountain II box set and the Stardock module - are they worth getting? are they any good? Any thoughts?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Here's what I think about the various Undermountain published materials.

Ruins of Undermountain - The original! The single best gaming product ever created for the game! By far my favorite of all time.

Ruins of Undermountain II - Sucked, sucked, sucked, sucked. Derivative, non-inspired, boring, unoriginal, contrived, ruins all sense of suspension of disbelief. A scaladar-shaped cavern for Trobriand? And Trobriand doesn't even appear on his own level! Riddle with errors and mis-labeled rooms. Silly NPCs. Poor writing. A druidess who murders her husband in a fit of rage for committing an evil act, who then chases his undead ass around Undermountain seeking his forgiveness, accompanied by her lesbian girlfriend. There's a reason why we're going to re-do that box set from scratch!

The Lost Level - I loved it! It captured a good amount of the feel of the original box set and was a worthy addition to Undermountain.

Maddgoth's Castle - So-so. I liked the idea of the floating castle, but being shrunk to miniature size and fighting fierce faerie dragons is not my idea of fun in Undermountain. Could have been so much better.

Stardock - This module would have been one of the lamest, stupidest, most idiotic modules ever created, except for the fact that it does not exist. I refuse to acknowledge that it exists, therefore it does not exist and did not happen. Nothing to see here folks, move along!

Skullport - A sourcebook. It has some good stuff in there, but already the idiocy is creeping in. They turned Shradin Mulophor, the necromancer who runs Skullport, into a crimson mist, which is just one step above the level of stupidity involved in changing Arcturia into a "Chondathan undead human worm that walks" in 3E. If you ignore some of the lame stuff, there's plenty worth using from this book.

In all seriousness now, don't waste your money on Undermountain II. I'm dead serious about the lesbian druidess searching for her undead ex-husband to ask forgiveness. I couldn't make up something that lame. The maps are bare and empty. The books are riddled with errors, and most of the stuff in there will have you first rolling your eyes , then blowing steam out your ears when you realize how much money you wasted. And $5 with shipping included would be too much wasted on that set, it's that bad.

Stardock was dreadfully bad as well. The very idea of kidnapping Halaster from Undermountain is ridiculous, and it reads like a poorly written soap opera. Maybe the writer was channeling Dragonlance at the time, I have no idea. But it was lame.

I'd say you'd probably be better off tracking down a copy of Skullport and a copy of Dragon # 172, which has a wicked cover and in 6 1/2 pages (with one being a full page piece of art and another being the map of Skullport). That 6.5 page article will give you more to work with than the entire Ruins of Undermountain II box set, and I'm not kidding about that. The article is great!

[Sangalor]

I agree with your comments on the first box set and the Lost Level module but I have a few thoughts/questions on the other points;

Ruins of Undermountain II - Sucked, sucked, sucked, sucked. Derivative, non-inspired, boring, unoriginal, contrived, ruins all sense of suspension of disbelief. A scaladar-shaped cavern for Trobriand? And Trobriand doesn't even appear on his own level! Riddle with errors and mis-labeled rooms. Silly NPCs. Poor writing. A druidess who murders her husband in a fit of rage for committing an evil act, who then chases his undead ass around Undermountain seeking his forgiveness, accompanied by her lesbian girlfriend. There's a reason why we're going to re-do that box set from scratch!

I'd heard that this box set was pretty awful and a lot of fans choose to heavily adjust the content to suit their campaigns. However despite it being pretty ordinary it is still "canon" for the setting - I'm a little uncertain how you can put it aside completely when you take this into consideration, especially when it seems that your quite serious about rules application generally?

Maddgoth's Castle - So-so. I liked the idea of the floating castle, but being shrunk to miniature size and fighting fierce faerie dragons is not my idea of fun in Undermountain. Could have been so much better.

This module does have a few issues but it still strikes me as an attempt (not overly successful) to get back to a earlier type of AD&D gaming - it raised some memories of some of the lighter modules I've read/played eg. Castle Greyhawk.

Stardock - This module would have been one of the lamest, stupidest, most idiotic modules ever created, except for the fact that it does not exist. I refuse to acknowledge that it exists, therefore it does not exist and did not happen. Nothing to see here folks, move along!

I haven't read this module but I'm wondering what you find so objectionable in it?

Skullport - A sourcebook. It has some good stuff in there, but already the idiocy is creeping in. They turned Shradin Mulophor, the necromancer who runs Skullport, into a crimson mist, which is just one step above the level of stupidity involved in changing Arcturia into a "Chondathan undead human worm that walks" in 3E. If you ignore some of the lame stuff, there's plenty worth using from this book.

I've read this product, but don't own it. I wasn't particularly distressed by alot of the ideas that were presented in the product eg. original Shradin being absorbed by the Skulls - they did leave a clone Shradin in play after all. I have been distressed by the most recent changes to Undermountain/Skullport i.e. destroying a few of the Skulls and turning the rest of them into regular undead, killing Halaster etc.

And $5 with shipping included would be too much wasted on that set, it's that bad.

$5? I'm in Australia so to get something from the US is more in the realm of $17! (USD that is)

I'd say you'd probably be better off tracking down a copy of Skullport and a copy of Dragon # 172, which has a wicked cover and in 6 1/2 pages (with one being a full page piece of art and another being the map of Skullport). That 6.5 page article will give you more to work with than the entire Ruins of Undermountain II box set, and I'm not kidding about that. The article is great![/quote]

I have the Dragon #172 article - many times repaired - it was my intro to the FR setting!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Sangalor wrote:

I'd heard that this box set was pretty awful and a lot of fans choose to heavily adjust the content to suit their campaigns. However despite it being pretty ordinary it is still "canon" for the setting - I'm a little uncertain how you can put it aside completely when you take this into consideration, especially when it seems that your quite serious about rules application generally?

It may be canon, but I'm ignoring it. The reason I find it so easy to put aside is because it's pure crap. I figure it like this. Fans of the setting, if given a choice between two versions of RoUII, are going to pick the better of the two.

I imagine myself being a typical Undermountain fan and having the crappy 2nd box set. I look at Trobriand's level, and it reads like something snatched from the offensively humorous Greyhawk Ruins module. It's riddled with errors, the maps are contrived and consist of 3/4ths empty space. The writing is juvenile soap opera crap, churned out for a quick paycheck. There is no originality or excitement to it.

Then I see this alternative version done not by hacks who wanted a quick paycheck but rather by fans who love the setting. I look inside and I see Trobriand's level being something suited to a character of his station. I see him actually being used in his own level. I see far better maps that are highly detailed and interesting, not contrived, 3/4ths empty maps as they were in the "official" publication. I see creative writing and exciting new monsters and spells. And it's actually been proof-read 4 times, unlike the original that was found wanting for a single proper proofing.

Which one will I use as "canon" in my campaigns? Definitely the second one!

For me at least, the bottom line when it comes to RoUII is that they totally dropped the ball. It failed in every way to live up to the quality of the original. I've never used those levels as presented nor any of the material from it, because I found it all lacking. I refused to pollute my campaign with that 3rd-rate crap. So I figured, let's get together and do it the right way, even if we have to do it ourselves.

That way, fans can decide which one they want to use as canon for their campaigns. And if they like ours better (and not to toot our own horn, but how could they not, all things considered?), they can always use the levels in RoUII from TSR as sublevels or something if they really want to make use of it.

This module does have a few issues but it still strikes me as an attempt (not overly successful) to get back to a earlier type of AD&D gaming - it raised some memories of some of the lighter modules I've read/played eg. Castle Greyhawk.

I really loved the idea (and the design) of the castle floating in Undermountain. Maybe I had set my hopes too high though, and that's why I just sorta like it so-so and not a lot.

I haven't read this module but I'm wondering what you find so objectionable in it?

Where do I begin? Keep in mind, when something sucks so badly, I tend to erase it from my mind, so I'm sure even with taking the non-existent module off my actually-existing shelf, I'll be overlooking some points.

First, the cover art sucked. It was that lame, semi-real "let's get Bob from accounting and Janet from human resources to model for the cover" style of art that I find so ridiculous and disturbing.

Second, the maps sucked. A lame, poorly colored, obviously random maze, and a pathetic 7-room asteroid map.

Third, there were no new monsters, no new spells, no new magic items. And that sucks. Ok, make that one new spell, a totally useless one.

Fourth, it was very rail-roady. It says in the beginning that one of the PCs are required to be a cleric of Azuth or Mystra. It dictates how the PCs get involved.

Fifth, the idea that the gates in Undermountain would suddenly start going haywire just because Halaster left the dungeon makes absolutely no sense when you consider that Halaster goes plane-hopping and is not only away from the dungeon itself but from the entire Prime Material Plane in which Abeir-Toril exists, sometimes for extended periods. Why don't the gates go haywire then? Just a bad idea overall, and completely illogical when you consider how gates function.

Sixth, how the hell are characters of 10th-14th level going to rescue a 30th level archmage from a group of people powerful enough to kidnap him from his ultra-secure stronghold? Even 18th level adventurers would be hard pressed to confront that sort of threat. If a group of mere 10th-14th level characters can effect a rescue, then the threat could not have been significant enough to bother Halaster, much less remove him from his dungeon. Why bother with such low-level adventurers? Khelben himself should be going on this mission, with Elminster and the Simbul for backups!

Seventh, the reward was ridiculous. An estate worth 250,000 gp for saving the entire continent, if not the entire world?

Eighth, the very idea of a couple of wizards kidnapping Halaster from his dungeon is absurd beyond words. We are talking about a guy who makes Khleben look weak and who is more than a match for Elminster (before they turned Elminster into a steroid-enhanced god). The ease with which they kidnapped him was offensively stupid, and considering that Halaster has secured himself for over 1,000 years, it's impossible to buy the explanation.

Ninth, the clue Halaster left is ridiculous.

Tenth, they're engaging in revisionist history. They now claim that Halaster is completely sane when outside of Undermountain, which goes against the original design of the character.

Finally, the anti-climactic, soap-opera ending. Of course, Halaster has to deliver the final defeat to the Twisted Rune, because the players who rescued him are not powerful enough to do so themselves.

The whole thing sucked.

More later, company just arrived.

[Doirche]

I see far better maps that are highly detailed and interesting, not contrived, 3/4ths empty maps as they were in the "official" publication.

I suddenly feel a boatload of more work coming my way in the near future..........

[Minstrel]

If a group of mere 10th-14th level characters can effect a rescue

Seeing the word effect used correctly as a verb pleases me immensely.

[Doirche]

If a group of mere 10th-14th level characters can effect a rescue

Seeing the word effect used correctly as a verb pleases me immensely.

LOL, One of my interview questions for the job I have now was "What is the difference between affect and effect?"

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Doirche wrote:

I suddenly feel a boatload of more work coming my way in the near future..........

So you're saying you won't mind if I add two more full-sized maps to the current Level 8 maps, so it can reach truly cyclopean dimensions?

[Halaster casts avoid lynching spell]



Minstrel wrote:

Seeing the word effect used correctly as a verb pleases me immensely.

Thanks Minstrel!

It freaks me out when I realize how often people get those things wrong. Like "dessert island" instead of "desert island". Worse yet, an island cannot be a desert (much less a dessert) but let's not go there. Deserted island, sure.

Doirche wrote:

LOL, One of my interview questions for the job I have now was "What is the difference between affect and effect?"

I'd have answered:

"My rate of pay does not have an effect on my work output, but it may affect my zeal for the job."

[Sangalor]

I like the idea of using the material (requiring heavy adaptation by the sounds of it) as sub-levels which could be added into the product you are working on. (Perhaps you guys can think of leaving that option open when you effect your design?)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Sangalor wrote:

I like the idea of using the material (requiring heavy adaptation by the sounds of it) as sub-levels which could be added into the product you are working on.

Ah,ah, ah...not added into our product. We'd hate to bring it down.

[McDeath]

When I bought ROUII I became utterly confused. I was completely WTF!?!?! I can't even remember if there were new monsters or not. Any of you read one of the Dragon Mags that had a version of crawling claws called "Flying Fingers?"

[McDeath]

I feel like a fool. Turns out flying fingers were in the original UM boxed set (according to one of Ed's articles).

ROUII did an OK job on their trap/etc cards. They weren't spectacular but they were OK. Funny that there were 5 double sided cards just for mechanical traps, 1 for magical trap, and 1 for illusions.