Raising undead

[Halaster Blackcloak]

As I've been going over some things I wrote in the past, printing them out for a binder I have (so I can read notes off-line), i ran across an old post about undead and how raise dead and resurrection affects them.

The 1E spell description for raise dead says:

"Note that newly made undead, excluding skeletons, which fall within the days of being dead limit are affected by raise dead spells cast upon them. The effect of the spell is to cause them to become resurrected dead, providing the constitution permits survival; otherwise, they are simply dead."

That's some pretty sloppy wording to parse into sensible speech. It sounds as if it's saying that if you use raise dead against an undead, it becomes a dead body - i.e. raised "dead". In other words, it's just a corpse, no longer undead. But the part about constitution survival indicates that what they meant to say was that a raise dead spell causes them to become resurrected (or more accurately written, "raised") living beings. If the undead fails its resurrection survival roll, it simply becomes a dead body. No mention of a saving throw. The resurrection spell notes that it works the same way as raise dead.

The monster description refutes the spell description. Under the entry for wights, it says:

"A raise dead spell will destroy a wight."

No save, no nothing, it just destroys it. According to the monster description, there is no saving throw and it does not case the wight to become a "raised dead" (i.e. a living being).

For spectres, it says:

"A raise dead spell will destroy a spectre unless it makes its saving throw vs. magic."

Doesn't say anything about raising it, just destroying it, albeit with a saving throw.

So I'm trying to get to the Final Answer for my games. It's rare that I've had PCs using those spells against undead - they rarely waste those resources, preferring to turn them, or destroy them, or drive them off with holy water, etc. But there were times they did use the spell and sometimes I referenced the PHB, other times the monster description, so there was some discrepancy over time.

Here are some thoughts and observations to discuss...

First, the low level things like skeletons. You obviously can't raise them, because they have no bodies - just skeletal remains. So I'm thinking a raise dead spell would simply destroy them. Although why a priest would waste such a high level spell on a single skeleton is beyond me. I'm not sure if they should get a saving throw though. A resurrection spell could theoretically restore a skeleton to full life, considering that there is some part of the body left (the bones).

But I'm not a fan of raising or resurrecting undead. The reason is that the spirit of that once-dead, now-undead person is gone, gone off to its reward or punishment in the afterlife. The corpse is now animated by energy from the Negative Material Plane. I'm thinking that those spells imbue the body with energy from the Positive Material Plane, therefore giving it the energy to call back its spirit - for lack of a more detailed explanation. That's why those spells also destroy undead - the spells channel Positive Material energy into a body animated by Negative Material energy, thus canceling it out. Matter, meet anti-matter! BOOM!

My idea for other corporeal undead (zombies, ghouls, shadows, wights, ghasts, etc) is that they would be affected by those spells in one of two ways - either it makes its saving throw, which turns it into a dead body (but not undead) or if it fails its saving throw, it's blasted out of existence. Although I'm not sure there should be a saving throw. If a priest is going to burn up such a high level spell to get rid of a single undead, maybe that's price enough. Perhaps we should forgo the saving throw. Then again, the outcome either way eliminates the threat, so what's the use of a saving throw? Is it superfluous?

Wraiths, spectres and ghosts are incorporeal, so you cannot raise or resurrect them since there is no body or part of a body with which to do so - they are just non-substantial spirits. The books say nothing about the effects of these spells on ghosts, but it does note that wraiths and spectres get a saving throw against a raise dead spell, which utterly destroys it if the undead fails its saving throw. I'm thinking to keep it that way for raise dead, but have no saving throw against a resurrection spell. It is quite a powerful spell.

Mummies are in the upper tier of HD when it comes to undead, so I'm thinking of making it affected the same as the spectre - a saving throw against a raise dead spell, no saving throw against a resurrection spell. For the former, if it fails, the mummy simply drops to the floor, no longer animated or undead. For the latter, it destroys the mummy. I don't think I like the monster description for mummies where it says a resurrection spell will turn it into a living 7th level human fighter. For one thing, I think of mummies as usually being 1,000 years old or older, many being far older than that. With a limit of 10 years per level of the priest, even a 20th level priest could only resurrect a mummy of 200 years of age or less. Not many 20th level priests out there. Usually we'd (eventually!) have a priest of say 14th level, the level at which he can finally cast resurrection. So he's limited to a 140 year old mummy. Eh. I think it's sort of not worth using that rule.

Vampires and liches would be treated the same way as mummies and the other non-corporeal undead.

For extremely powerful/unique undead (like perhaps a dracolich), I would say raise dead has no effect, and they get a saving throw vs. resurrection.

I love undead, especially ghosts, mummies and liches, so I hate the idea that the cleric can simply cast a single spell and POOF! Problem solved. It's too easy. What do you all think?

[garhkal]

For me, i run it that wights and similar CORPOREAL undead are blasted into dust via it (as per the MM write up for wights). Wraiths/spectres, just perma die, IF they fail a save. All others not affected.

[McDeath]

Makes me wonder a bit on wraiths, ghosts, banshees, spectres, etc.... I've played gamebooks and read about laying these spirits to rest by sanctifying their physical remains (or burning & salting their bones, holy ground etc). Its funny about wraiths as I used to believe they were only partially incorporeal (semi-corporeal). I don't know why as a kid; maybe it was the art. I guess i believe the physical remains turned partially ghostlike but were still partially physical. I also used to wonder if undead could be brought back to physical life.

Would they be insane?
Possessed/influenced by demons?
Alignment permantly altered?

It is easier if just blasted to dust or gone I suppose.