Should PC wizards be able to cast wish spells?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'll preface this by explaining how I run wishes in my game first, to set the context for the question.

I'm not like some DMs (who I consider poor DMs) like many of the DF idiots, who insist on perverting each and every wish to the point where no sane player would ever use one. I don't fear wishes, nor do I consider them game breaking. I've always hated the silly cliché:

"If you wish an enemy dead, simply send the person making the wish to the future, where his enemy has already died."

That's supposed to be creative? It's silly. It splits the party and takes the PC out of play permanently. And if the PC has a second wish, he can simply wish himself back. I would allow it. There's no reason why the now-dead enemy can't come back as a spectre or a ghost looking for revenge. That would be quite a shock to the PCs, and it keeps an interesting enemy in the game and makes him perhaps more powerful. Or perhaps a powerful demon lord or evil god transforms the dead character into a demon to take revenge on the PCs. Or perhaps the thieve's guild puts a hit out on the party for their sin. Or say they took out a powerful enemy, like perhaps Manshoon of the Zhentarim. Fine. Enjoy it while you can, heroes! Because now Semmemon steps up and becomes an even more powerful leader, or Fzoul Chembryl ascends to power and because he restored the church of Bane to its rightful place at the head of the Zhentarim, the organization is now empowered even more so by more radical fanatics.

And then there's the example of a PC wishingfor great treasure, and the DM teleports the king's treasure to the PCs, then arrests them. BORING. Why not just drop a ton of gold on the spot? How do the PCs transport it? Protect it from being stolen? A bag of holding, even the largest one, will only hold 1,500 lbs, which comes to 15,000 gp (10 coins to a pound). So if there are 100,000 gp in a huge fucking pile laying out in the open, what do the PCs do with the other 85,000 gp which weigh in at 8,500 lbs? FOUR TONS of gold sitting there in a huge pile. A teleport spell (cast by a high level, i.e. 18th level wizard) can only teleport 2,950 lbs. Far short of the other 8,500 lbs of coins. And most PCs are nowhere hear that level. See any problems here? If the PCs overload the bag of holding, or say the treasure isn't just coins but contains weapons, including unsheathed swords, well...that overloads or punctures the bag (respectively) and BOOM! All that treasure is lost forever.

Or maybe the PCs using the wish are teleported into the treasure hoard of a great wyrm red dragon, who is just about to arrive home to add some items to his collection while the PCs are stuffing their pockets. Quite a bit more interesting, no?

So I allow quite a bit of latitude for PCs to use wishes. I try to apply common sense to the wish - I don't try to "pervert" or ruin the wish. I simply stick to the adage "be careful what you wish for", as PCs often don't think of the logical consequences of their wishes.

Now that I got that out of the way, let's focus on the topic at hand. Should PC wizards be able to cast wishes regularly as a memorized spell? Now keep in mind, PC wizards must hit 18th level in order to be able to memorize and cast spells. So the party at that level will be facing pretty powerful threats. Still, the easy use of wishes at that level, I could see unbalancing a game. What I mean is this. The wizard can cast a wish every day if need be. Yes, he ages 5 years. Assuming the wizard is 50 by the time he hits 18th level, he can safely cast 8 to 16 wishes before exhausting his likely life span (going by the possible range of maximum age listed in the PHB of 90 + 2d20 years). And that's not counting any use of potions of youth and the like. And yes, the aging comes with a system shock roll, but even an average CON of 10 gives a 70% chance of surviving it - quite good odds.

So if the PCs are in a really rough spot, the wizard can simply wish a powerful enemy dead, before the villain can defeat the party. Or wish that great wyrm red dragon powerless or breathless. Or wish an army of fighters to appear to help the PCs. Sheer numbers can turn the tide to an unstoppable advantage. Or wish for an extremely powerful magic item to appear, or a powerful ally such as a solar to appear. Or simply wish the earth to open up and swallow the enemy/enemies. Or wish a meteorite to hit them. Or during an intense battle, where the PCs are hurting bad and so are their enemies, simply wish the entire party to be restored to full health and capability. Battle over.

There are so many ways a wizard can use that wish as a get out of jail card, and he can do it every day if need be.

I've rarely run such high level campaigns, but now that I think about it, I'm wondering if it's better to not allow wizards to cast wishes regularly. Wishes are supposed to be rare. How can they be rare if they can be cast every day, or at least whenever needed? I think that also takes the mystique out of Wishes . They become common, easy to get, always there, you basically cannot run out of them. What do you all think?

[garhkal]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'll preface this by explaining how I run wishes in my game first, to set the context for the question.

I'm not like some DMs (who I consider poor DMs) like many of the DF idiots, who insist on perverting each and every wish to the point where no sane player would ever use one. I don't fear wishes, nor do I consider them game breaking. I've always hated the silly cliché:

"If you wish an enemy dead, simply send the person making the wish to the future, where his enemy has already died."

TO me, WHERE the wish comes from is MORE important than how 'cheezy/greedy' their wish is.. One from a good god, stands a LITTLE to no chance of being fuzzed with, while one from an effriti or the like WILL get fozzed with.

That's supposed to be creative? It's silly. It splits the party and takes the PC out of play permanently. And if the PC has a second wish, he can simply wish himself back. I would allow it. There's no reason why the now-dead enemy can't come back as a spectre or a ghost looking for revenge. That would be quite a shock to the PCs, and it keeps an interesting enemy in the game and makes him perhaps more powerful. Or perhaps a powerful demon lord or evil god transforms the dead character into a demon to take revenge on the PCs. Or perhaps the thieve's guild puts a hit out on the party for their sin. Or say they took out a powerful enemy, like perhaps Manshoon of the Zhentarim. Fine. Enjoy it while you can, heroes! Because now Semmemon steps up and becomes an even more powerful leader, or Fzoul Chembryl ascends to power and because he restored the church of Bane to its rightful place at the head of the Zhentarim, the organization is now empowered even more so by more radical fanatics.

AND how would YOU handle it, if the npc mage also had wish, and WISHED the PC(s) dead??

And then there's the example of a PC wishingfor great treasure, and the DM teleports the king's treasure to the PCs, then arrests them. BORING. Why not just drop a ton of gold on the spot? How do the PCs transport it? Protect it from being stolen? A bag of holding, even the largest one, will only hold 1,500 lbs, which comes to 15,000 gp (10 coins to a pound). So if there are 100,000 gp in a huge fucking pile laying out in the open, what do the PCs do with the other 85,000 gp which weigh in at 8,500 lbs? FOUR TONS of gold sitting there in a huge pile. A teleport spell (cast by a high level, i.e. 18th level wizard) can only teleport 2,950 lbs. Far short of the other 8,500 lbs of coins. And most PCs are nowhere hear that level. See any problems here? If the PCs overload the bag of holding, or say the treasure isn't just coins but contains weapons, including unsheathed swords, well...that overloads or punctures the bag (respectively) and BOOM! All that treasure is lost forever.

Many sources say magic has consequences.. "there is a price for using magic", and "be careful what you wish for" etc.. I don't see that pinging overtly greedy wishes, as being a 'dick move'..

Now that I got that out of the way, let's focus on the topic at hand. Should PC wizards be able to cast wishes regularly as a memorized spell? Now keep in mind, PC wizards must hit 18th level in order to be able to memorize and cast spells. So the party at that level will be facing pretty powerful threats. Still, the easy use of wishes at that level, I could see unbalancing a game. What I mean is this. The wizard can cast a wish every day if need be. Yes, he ages 5 years. Assuming the wizard is 50 by the time he hits 18th level, he can safely cast 8 to 16 wishes before exhausting his likely life span (going by the possible range of maximum age listed in the PHB of 90 + 2d20 years). And that's not counting any use of potions of youth and the like. And yes, the aging comes with a system shock roll, but even an average CON of 10 gives a 70% chance of surviving it - quite good odds.

Most players are LOATH to cast cetain spells, cause f that aging, and thus System shock roll requirement... WISH amongst them, unless it's from an item/scroll they found...

So if the PCs are in a really rough spot, the wizard can simply wish a powerful enemy dead, before the villain can defeat the party. Or wish that great wyrm red dragon powerless or breathless. Or wish an army of fighters to appear to help the PCs. Sheer numbers can turn the tide to an unstoppable advantage. Or wish for an extremely powerful magic item to appear, or a powerful ally such as a solar to appear. Or simply wish the earth to open up and swallow the enemy/enemies. Or wish a meteorite to hit them. Or during an intense battle, where the PCs are hurting bad and so are their enemies, simply wish the entire party to be restored to full health and capability. Battle over.

And how do you handle it, if the NPC has a wish in their arsenal?? Do THEY get to do the same??

I've rarely run such high level campaigns, but now that I think about it, I'm wondering if it's better to not allow wizards to cast wishes regularly. Wishes are supposed to be rare. How can they be rare if they can be cast every day, or at least whenever needed? I think that also takes the mystique out of Wishes . They become common, easy to get, always there, you basically cannot run out of them. What do you all think?

Which to me, is WHY they should be rare.. Thus if i ever played a game that GOT That high, wish's would NOT be a learned spell the mage can just add to his spellbook...

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

TO me, WHERE the wish comes from is MORE important than how 'cheezy/greedy' their wish is.. One from a good god, stands a LITTLE to no chance of being fuzzed with, while one from an effriti or the like WILL get fozzed with.

Good point! I don't envy a PC who gains a wish granted by Asmodeus!

ND how would YOU handle it, if the npc mage also had wish, and WISHED the PC(s) dead??

Technically I'd allow it, but I'd never use a wish as such a blunt instrument. It's far more insidious to wish away all the PCs' magic items or wish them all to age 50 years into old age or something like that.

Most players are LOATH to cast cetain spells, cause f that aging, and thus System shock roll requirement... WISH amongst them, unless it's from an item/scroll they found...

Yeah, most of my players HATED artificial aging more than anything else - even more than level drains! But still, for a wish they'd most likely take the risk and the aging. Not so much for a haste spell.

And how do you handle it, if the NPC has a wish in their arsenal?? Do THEY get to do the same??

Oh yeah! I remember in one higher level campaign, the evil wizard wished all the PCs' clothes turned to stone. They were essentially encased in statue-like straight jackets. And he left them there to die of starvation. Luckily their followers went looking for them and eventually freed them, but man did they hate that! And once the enemy DID actually wish all their magic items to become non-magical. Boy, did THAT piss them off! Some of those high level games were brutal for both sides!

Which to me, is WHY they should be rare.. Thus if i ever played a game that GOT That high, wish's would NOT be a learned spell the mage can just add to his spellbook...

Yeah, I think it makes them way too easy, too common. And really, once you hit 18th level, it's pretty much time to retire. It's hard to have a challenging campaign when the PCs are that high level. It can be done, just not easily. A LOT more work for the DM. At one point I did re-write the spell. In the PHB it says that a wish used to heal the party or teleport them to safety has no side effects, but I don't like that. It's still the same 9th level spell, being used to alter reality, regardless of the degree of reality altered. So ANY wish should be debilitating. And the -3 on STR makes no sense when it should be a -3 on CON. Anything with a system shock roll would more correctly affect CON rather than STR.

I don't know. This wasn't an issue in those rare high level campaigns, mainly because those players were terrified of artificial aging. It wasn't abused and they rarely ever cast wish. Most times the wizard didn't even have it memorized, opting for other spells due to the aging. Still, I think if I had a player who didn't care about aging and perhaps had stockpiled a couple of potions of youth or longevity, they could make the game difficult.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Ooops! Skipped a point!

Many sources say magic has consequences.. "there is a price for using magic", and "be careful what you wish for" etc.. I don't see that pinging overtly greedy wishes, as being a 'dick move'..

I agree. What I hate is DMs like many at DF who just seem to get jollier than an orgasm over fucking up wishes for their players. It's like they give them out just to fuck over the PCs. That to me is dickery. Like I said, and I agree, be careful what you wish for. But don't just fuck up a wish. The PCs want a million GP? No need to steal it from the king or drop it on top of the party, making it a TPK (or even just atop the one PC casting the wish). It's far more fun and far more challenging to let them have what they want, but have to deal with the unintended consequences. Dumping a pile of a million gp on the PCs and killing them, the players say "What an asshole my DM is!".

Giving them a million loose gp spread out in the middle of the field and then asking them how they intend to protect and transport it, and then watching their faces drop when they realize the logistical problems surrounding it - how to gather it, store it, transport it, protect it, etc - and then it becomes "oh shit, we didn't think before we wished for this!". Now it's the PCs' fault they have problems with what they wished for.

That approach also forces them to think about it before the next time they get a wish. They think very carefully before uttering it!

[garhkal]

Giving them a million loose gp spread out in the middle of the field and then asking them how they intend to protect and transport it, and then watching their faces drop when they realize the logistical problems surrounding it - how to gather it, store it, transport it, protect it, etc - and then it becomes "oh shit, we didn't think before we wished for this!". Now it's the PCs' fault they have problems with what they wished for.

That approach also forces them to think about it before the next time they get a wish. They think very carefully before uttering it!

BUT then that can backfire, as they call doing THAT, just as "DICKISH" as having it drop right on their head...

[Halaster Blackcloak]

How so? In a case like this, it's not the DM warping their wish or anything like that. The problems are inherent in the wish itself - problems that the PCs did not think through.

The DM can say, well...you wished for a million gold pieces and you got them. They didn't come from the king's treasury, so you won't be hunted down by him. They didn't land on you and kill you. I let your wish be filled literally and precisely as you wished. You got exactly what you asked for. A million gold pieces. It's not my fault the coins weigh 100,000 lbs and you have no way to transport it. I didn't do anything to screw with your wish.

The problem is not a DM decision, in other words - it's just the reality of what is. Coins are 10 coins/lb, so there's 100,000 lbs or 50 TONS of gold coins. The PCs got what they asked for but as the saying goes - be careful what you wish for. Now they have to figure out a way to store and transport and protect 50 tons of coins. It wasn't by any stretch of the imagination the DM being a dick.

Any player who would whine to me that I was being a "dick" by granting his wish without in any way warping it, I would throw out of my game. After all, I wasn't the one who wished for 50 tons of coins, he did.

[garhkal]

True, but the players, who generally will MAKE those sorts of greedy wishes, are also the ones who will BITCH and moan, that they can't take FULL accessability to what ever they wished for INSTANTLY...

[Halaster Blackcloak]

True, but as I said, players who are that bitchy, I tell them to leave and not come back. I COULD understand a player bitching to the DM when the DM just warps the shit out of a wish for no reason, just to fuck over the players. To me that's just shit-poor DMing. But that's why I prefer not to warp wishes (although I would make an exception for one granted by Asmodeus or perhaps an efreet, etc, as you pointed out). I'd rather let the players realize that they brought on their own misfortune by their greed and lack of foresight. Always put the blame where blame belongs.