Dragons or demons - which is the deadlier monster?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I had a debate many years ago with a fellow gamer in my old neighborhood. An old friend of mine recently re-opened the topic, so I figured I'd post the question here as well.

So often I've read at other sites (like DF) where people don't like dragons being the toughest monsters in the game because, in their words:

"After all, it is called Dungeons & DRAGONS. You should be able to fight dragons regularly."

I never understood that thinking. As a DM, I always make dragons very powerful. They get 12 sided HD, for one thing. They get to use their breath weapon as often as they like, but only once every 3 rds. (that doesn't mean I DO have them use it that often, only that they CAN do so). And so on and so forth. It's the damned titular monster, for god's sake! But even so, you can always have dragons appear regularly. I've often wondered if the people who say that don't realize that dragons have age categories.

Sure, if you send a Great Wyrm Red Dragon against a 3rd level party, there is no need to roll. Just tell the players: "The dragon killed you all instantly. Roll up new characters." It would be abusive to do so. But a lower level party like that, why can't they fight a hatchling or perhaps a very young dragon? I've always done it that way. As the party goes up in levels, they get to fight older and tougher dragons. And yes, I am working my way to the debate itself. Hang in there!

So yeah, dragons are probably the toughest monsters overall in the game. I hate when people at DF start the HD/thaco comparisons and "game it out" that way, because if you use dragons correctly, they are goddamned deadly no matter what level the party. Only a foolish DM would have a dragon stand toe-to-toe and trade blows with a huge high level party.

But demons (and devils)...those bastards are tough too! They're tough for several reasons. One, they have very high magic resistance. Two, they're immune to quite a few forms of damage. Three, they get lots of attacks. And four, worst of all (along with MR), is their ability to gate in other demons.

You have, for example, a party of 5 fighting a marilith. It's got 70% MR and gets 7 attacks per round, many of which are with magical weapons (I love using swords of wounding, swords of sharpness, and vorpal swords ). It can cast spells. It's immune to certain forms of damage. It also has a -9 AC. And it has a 35% chance of gating in 2-20 least demons, 1-6 lesser demons, 1-4 greater demons or 1 true demon (tanar'ri). If those are gated in, they can also gate in others.

Balors are tough too. 70% MR, -8AC, can gate in 1-4 greater or 1 true demons once per hour, with 100% chance of success. So in the first round it gates in 1-4 babau, with an average of 2 being summoned. They each, in turn, have a 40% chance of gating in 1-6 cambions or 1 extra babau. Of the two, one will most likely succeed, so that means on the third round the PCs are facing:

1 balor
2 babau
3 cambions

All have high MR. That's 1 demon for each PC (in the aforementioned party of 5). If the demons get lucky, it could be as many as:

1 balor
4 babau
24 cambions

Or imagine if the balor gates in a vrock, which then gates in a nalfeshnee, which then gates in another vrock, which then gates in another nalfeshnee, etc.

So in a matter of a few rounds you could be facing an army of demons, all of whom have an AC of -7 to -9, high MR, spells, immunities, multiple attacks each, deadly special attacks, and the ability to gate in other demons.

I don't honestly know which is tougher. I've had parties wiped out by dragons in a few rounds, and I've had parties swarmed and destroyed by demons or devils in a few rounds.

What do the rest of you think?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Pit fiends (devils) are worse in many way! They have a 100% chance of gating in another greater devil once per round with a 100% chance!

So in the first round, the pit fiend gates in another pit fiend. On the second round both pit fiends gate in a pit fiend. Going into the 3rd round, the party is facing 4 pit fiends. On that 3rd round, they each gate in a gelugon. On the 4th round the party is facing:

4 pit fiends
4 gelugon

On the 4th round the pit fiends each gate in another gelugon, bringing the total to 8 gelugon, 4 pit fiends. The 4 gelugon already there on the 4th round have a 50% chance of gating in 2-12 babau (each). So that means on average 2 will succeed and on average will gate in 7 barbazu.

On the 5th round the other gelugons do the same. Now there are:

4 pit fiends
8 gelugons
14 babau

And that's assuming that the pit fiends do not gate in others on the 4th and 5th rounds, otherwise there could be another 4 pit fiends or another 4 gelugon!

Damned deadly!

[McDeath]

There are some good stories based on the AD&D dragons and fiends used to the fullest of their intellect and deviousness. I recall a story of a Red who had such an impressive lair and set of disposable henchmen it rivalled Xanathar. It also had a shapechanging object so kind of like a CE gold in some respects.

Fiends (devils, demons, etc) often don't delve into possession and other aspects (perhaps some don't have these abilities listed I don't recall). The summoning can be rather horrid unless i am mistaken about why it might not be used repeatedly.

Mayfair Games had Demons products with many unique types and rules on spreading evil, possession, etc etc. I'd rather stick with core 1e/2e rules based on what's given. If you do include rules all the way to say Van Ritchen's Guides then they're extremely deadly beyond their base premise.

Played correctly with no leniency any creature or encounter could annihilate a party. That's we played moldvay/cook D&D and I can say None of them ever lived beyond 8th lvl (or at all...)

[garhkal]

I'd say Demons are, JUST because of the gating in ability.

BUT one thing i had with a former DM, he had it that ANY magic swords his Maralith were using, FADED OUT and went back to the plane of hell WITH THE DEMON, when it got killed.. SO we couldn't loot it.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

I'd say Demons are, JUST because of the gating in ability.

I personally haven't made up my mind yet. And I think it depends on what demons or devils you're facing. For example, pit fiends can gate in others with a 100% chance. Lesser demons may have only a 35% chance to gate in help. So a lower level demon doesn't pose the same high risk as higher level demons do. But for sake of argument, let's compare the most powerful devils and demons to dragons.

I'd almost call it a coin toss. Dragons have high MR, can cast spells, and have horrendously powerful breath weapons. One breath from a great wyrm can take out half the party even if they make their saving throws. A great wyrm red dragon, for example, will average 144 pts. of damage with its breath weapon, 72 pts. with a successful saving throw. Pretty much any wizard, cleric, or thief likely dies unless somehow protected from fire, even if they make their saving throw. Any powerful fighters or paladins or rangers who miss their saving throw likely die and if they don't, there's that damned item saving throw vs. magical fire. If they save, they're still very, very weak. Probably at 1/3 total hp or less.

Two breath weapons pretty much takes out any party.

With demons, they have high MR, cast spells, and while their attacks aren't as damaging, they can easily overwhelm you with sheer numbers. Once 2 or 3 demons are gated in, you're pretty much fucked.

I've never been able to decide which I consider more dangerous, but demons/devils and dragons, regardless of which is #1 and #2, would definitely be the top 2 monsters in dangerousness.

Oddly, the dreaded tarrasque is too easily defeated due to not having MR, so guess what I did? Yes, I gave it MR, like a great wyrm.

It's just too anti-climactic for the tarrasque to appear only to have a low level wizard polymorph it into a goldfish in the first round and watch it die slowly in the hot sun. Not in my game!

BUT one thing i had with a former DM, he had it that ANY magic swords his Maralith were using, FADED OUT and went back to the plane of hell WITH THE DEMON, when it got killed.. SO we couldn't loot it.

I've usually done it that way too, although I've sometimes left the demons' weapons behind but declared them highly evilly aligned, so even touching one does horrendous damage. Really the only thing the party could do is try to find a way to destroy it. What good party would want an evil person potentially getting his hands on on a vorpal weapon forged in the Abyss and usable only by extremely evil characters? They sort of have to find a way to destroy it.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

There are some good stories based on the AD&D dragons and fiends used to the fullest of their intellect and deviousness. I recall a story of a Red who had such an impressive lair and set of disposable henchmen it rivalled Xanathar. It also had a shapechanging object so kind of like a CE gold in some respects.

Always!

I love giving dragons servants and guardians! I remember one great wyrm white dragon who was served by a band of frost giants and their winter wolf pets. Want to kill the dragon and take his hoard? Well, first you gotta get past 12 frost giants and 16 winter wolves.

And the white dragon had all his treasure sealed up in thick, massive walls of ice. And there were traps in the lair, and in the passageways leading to the main lair.

I had a blue dragon whose lair was filled at the bottom with water and he had metal rods extended from the ceilings and walls. One breath of lightning and everything in the room was hit multiple times. No one is grounded! He also tunneled into a mountain loaded with iron ore, so his breath weapon was able to be channeled down the hallways and tunnels.

I am a huge fan of allowing black dragon acid breath to continue doing damage for multiple rounds. Think about it. You're DRENCHED with acid! Powerful acid! Even the chintzy acid arrow spell lasts multiple rounds. Most acid does. So I let it sizzle on the victims for a few rounds. God, my players hate black dragons. I wonder why?

They take extraordinary precautions with black dragons! And what I love about black dragons is that the item save for metal is 13, so even a +3 sword (with its +3 bonus) has a 50% chance of being destroyed.

Item saves for dragon breath can be worse than the actual character damage!

Fiends (devils, demons, etc) often don't delve into possession and other aspects (perhaps some don't have these abilities listed I don't recall). The summoning can be rather horrid unless i am mistaken about why it might not be used repeatedly.

Most of them don't have possession ability (can't think of which does, off hand, if any). They really should (at least some should) have magic jar ability. The summoning (gating in actually) of other demons has (for most) a 35% to 50% chance of being successful, with the exception of powerful demons and devils like balors and pit fiends, who have a 100% chance of gating another in. Some of my groups have loved the idea of fighting demons, although once or twice that religious zeal ended in a TPK. One was with a pit fiend gating in others, the other involved a balor gating in something and then it grew exponentially from there. Even the lower level demons with a mere 35% chance of gating in others succeeded (and I rolled the percentage chance out in the open for the players to see). It was over in something like 4 - r rounds. Just overwhelmed by numbers.

Mayfair Games had Demons products with many unique types and rules on spreading evil, possession, etc etc. I'd rather stick with core 1e/2e rules based on what's given. If you do include rules all the way to say Van Ritchen's Guides then they're extremely deadly beyond their base premise.

I have some of the Mayfair stuff for demons but haven't really used them. I read through some of it, but it's been awhile. They did cover possession for some, didn't they? I LOVE the Van Richten's Guides to the various undead (some of the best, most useful supplements there are, in my eyes). I don't recall reading the Van Richten Guide to Demons (or Fiends I think the title says). Was it pretty good?

Played correctly with no leniency any creature or encounter could annihilate a party. That's we played moldvay/cook D&D and I can say None of them ever lived beyond 8th lvl (or at all...)

I wouldn't say "any" creature. A mid to high level party isn't likely to be killed by giant centipedes or orcs or kobolds. But player wisely by a DM, the more powerful monsters surely can defeat most parties unless they players are careful. Beholders, dragons, demons, giants, etc. I've had TPKs or near-TPKs with all of them (dragons and demons more than most others).

And you know which monster always seems to overwhelm my players? DROW ELVES! And I LOVE Drow elves, but used correctly, they're so fucking powerful and dangerous, it's hard for a party to beat them. ESPECIALLY if the party consists of mainly humans. Good luck! Drow are so dangerous because:

1. They have high magic resistance - every one of them does
2. They can levitate and fight from the air with ranged/poisoned weapons
3. Most poison does not affect them
4. There's always a damned priestess with even higher MR and lots of wicked spells
5. They use poison on EVERYTHING!
6. They are usually encountered in groups of 5 or more
7. They often have monster spiders with them
8. They all have great AC and magical weapons

Drow probably round out the Top 3 Deadliest monsters in my experience. Dragons, demons/devils and Drow elves!

[garhkal]

I'd almost call it a coin toss. Dragons have high MR, can cast spells, and have horrendously powerful breath weapons. One breath from a great wyrm can take out half the party even if they make their saving throws. A great wyrm red dragon, for example, will average 144 pts. of damage with its breath weapon, 72 pts. with a successful saving throw. Pretty much any wizard, cleric, or thief likely dies unless somehow protected from fire, even if they make their saving throw. Any powerful fighters or paladins or rangers who miss their saving throw likely die and if they don't, there's that damned item saving throw vs. magical fire. If they save, they're still very, very weak. Probably at 1/3 total hp or less.

Its been rare i've caught more than 50% of the party in a breath attack.
And as for the MR, that depends on which color AND age they are..

I've usually done it that way too, although I've sometimes left the demons' weapons behind but declared them highly evilly aligned, so even touching one does horrendous damage. Really the only thing the party could do is try to find a way to destroy it. What good party would want an evil person potentially getting his hands on on a vorpal weapon forged in the Abyss and usable only by extremely evil characters? They sort of have to find a way to destroy it.

One group i dm'ed for, took to having blacksmith tongs, to pick up weapons dropped by evil folk they defeated..

I am a huge fan of allowing black dragon acid breath to continue doing damage for multiple rounds. Think about it. You're DRENCHED with acid! Powerful acid! Even the chintzy acid arrow spell lasts multiple rounds. Most acid does. So I let it sizzle on the victims for a few rounds. God, my players hate black dragons. I wonder why? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Laughing

How long do you have it last for? What drop in damage do you have??

And you know which monster always seems to overwhelm my players?

Ghouls, ghasts, Z-throk and Kephrinn, for me..

[McDeath]

That must have been a well above average White Dragon as they aren't known for their smarts. Most Frost clans subdue them. A few games I know of have white varriants: crystal, frost, linnorms, ice, etc. Tbh, I've always wondered why the low int rating. There are articles on dragons not always by color, and rare abilities in the 2e and older dragon mag. Nothing stops a DM from making a genius white or just change out Red into white but use white abilities and breathweapon. MENTZER had sizes of course but 2e utilizes sizes already.

http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00058.htm

Why the hell is its breath weapon so weak compared to the other chromatic? 12d6? Backs have 24d4+12, blues, greens, reds 2dxx+12. Whites get shafted. Age 4 is the base age. I feel like the charts need to be adjusted for a few other statistics like int, movement, morale...

Reds at great wyrm are only ewuivalent to Lvl 21 magi. Odd that in say FR or a few other scenarios humans can hit lvl 40. Maybe some have no cap. Ah well, i guess DMs can make exceptional variants.

Is this draconic racial bigotry?

[garhkal]

Whites DO seem to get the short end of the shaft, in regards to dragon kind...

[McDeath]

Hope they don't riot. So many Friendly Frost Giant communities couldn't handle anarchist WD's tagging their lands and stealing stuff. Then again, evil dragons....

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Its been rare i've caught more than 50% of the party in a breath attack.
And as for the MR, that depends on which color AND age they are..

True, it is hard to catch the whole party. I tend to get dragons to "channel" the PCs into where it can hit the most of them, whenever possible. I've also ruled in the past that the dragon can turn its head while breathing, as is often seen in movies, so it can sweep a much wider area and hit more PCs.

One group i dm'ed for, took to having blacksmith tongs, to pick up weapons dropped by evil folk they defeated..

A damned good solution!

How long do you have it last for? What drop in damage do you have??

It's been awhile, so I'd have to check the notes. I think it was whatever full damage is rolled on the first round, half that on the second round, and one quarter on the third round. Diluting it for one round would prevent further damage, but you'd need a good amount of water or wine.

Ghouls, ghasts, Z-throk and Kephrinn, for me..

A bunch of ghouls and ghasts caused us some real sweating in this evening's earlier session!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

That must have been a well above average White Dragon as they aren't known for their smarts. Most Frost clans subdue them. A few games I know of have white varriants: crystal, frost, linnorms, ice, etc. Tbh, I've always wondered why the low int rating. There are articles on dragons not always by color, and rare abilities in the 2e and older dragon mag. Nothing stops a DM from making a genius white or just change out Red into white but use white abilities and breathweapon. MENTZER had sizes of course but 2e utilizes sizes already.

I've always hated how they portrayed white dragons as stupid. I make all dragons intelligent, very much so. If a dragon can live to be ancient or a wyrm or great wrym, it must be pretty smart and wily.

Why the hell is its breath weapon so weak compared to the other chromatic? 12d6? Backs have 24d4+12, blues, greens, reds 2dxx+12. Whites get shafted. Age 4 is the base age. I feel like the charts need to be adjusted for a few other statistics like int, movement, morale...

I upped the damage for white dragon breath, making it equal to black dragon breath. 12d6 for a great wyrm is far too little. It's like a 12th level wizard's fireball. 42 pts, save for 21? No way!

Reds at great wyrm are only ewuivalent to Lvl 21 magi. Odd that in say FR or a few other scenarios humans can hit lvl 40. Maybe some have no cap. Ah well, i guess DMs can make exceptional variants.

I did away with level caps for most things (demi-humans, spell damage, etc).

Is this draconic racial bigotry?

There you go! Let's riot and pillage!

[garhkal]

A bunch of ghouls and ghasts caused us some real sweating in this evening's earlier session!

A while back in one session the party DECLINED to take a priest with them (ave level 7, two were L9) they almost had a TPK from THREE ghasts leading 5 ghouls...

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I think overall my players have always tended to have a cleric on the team, but there were a few campaigns where they had a druid but not a cleric. Needless to say, I made sure they met their fair share of undead!