Strange problem with scroll creation

[Halaster Blackcloak]

One of my players has a wizard who is going to be writing some scrolls. I checked back in the DMG because I always forget the details for making scrolls. While doing so, I noticed a problem in the rules. On pgs. 86-86 of the DMG, it says:

"A single scroll can contain 1 to 6 spells, the number determined by the DM. The player can never be certain of the amount of space required even for the same spell on two different scrolls. A failed attempt fills the remainder of the page, though other spells written before the failure remain. In this case, the cursed effect of the failed spell will not come into effect until that spell is read."

First, it seems odd to me that the same spell created on the same sort of paper or parchment, using the same ingredients and procedures, would create a different length of written space per spell. The written formula is the same. Everything is the same. It makes no sense.

Also, if the wizard is writing a simple spell on a scroll and suddenly it fills the entire page, that would be a give away that the spell was transcribed wrong and therefore is cursed. I get it that they wrote the rule about not knowing how much space a given spell will take even if it's the same spell on the same scroll, but that illogic seems to be simply a clunky attempt to disguise the fact that the spell went wrong.

Has anyone else ever dealt with this? Thoughts?

[garhkal]

One of my players has a wizard who is going to be writing some scrolls. I checked back in the DMG because I always forget the details for making scrolls. While doing so, I noticed a problem in the rules. On pgs. 86-86 of the DMG, it says:

"A single scroll can contain 1 to 6 spells, the number determined by the DM. The player can never be certain of the amount of space required even for the same spell on two different scrolls. A failed attempt fills the remainder of the page, though other spells written before the failure remain. In this case, the cursed effect of the failed spell will not come into effect until that spell is read."

First, it seems odd to me that the same spell created on the same sort of paper or parchment, using the same ingredients and procedures, would create a different length of written space per spell. The written formula is the same. Everything is the same. It makes no sense.

Its just like mage one can take up 3 pages in his spellbook to write down say Read magic, while mage 2 takes only 1 page..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

That doesn't make sense though. Sure, I can see two different wizards needing a different amount of page space per spell - perhaps each one learns a different formula, etc. But for the same wizard using the same formula for the same spell on the same scroll using the same ingredients and supplies to vary in the amount of space needed makes no sense.

[McDeath]

Mage 1


Vs Mage 2

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I agree - that's actually the point I made. Two different people will write a bit differently as far as letter spacing, font size, etc. And any given language may take more or fewer words to day the same thing. So sure, two different mages could end up using a different amount of space to scribe the same spell, even using the same formula, etc. due to differences in language, writing style, etc. So for example, if you, McDeath, wrote a paragraph and then Garhkal and I also each wrote the same paragraph, we might each use a different amount of page space. Especially if we each wrote in different languages.

But I'm talking about a single mage writing the same spell. I don't know about anyone else, but unless I have a compelling reason to write something in bigger sized font than normal (say I have to leave out a note for UPS), I always write with the same font size and spacing. So if I write the same paragraph 5 times, it's always going to take up the same space. There may be the tiniest variation - maybe for example, on one of those paragraphs one word ends up on an additional line. Maybe. But no way if I wrote the same paragraph on 5 sheets of paper would it fill 1/4 of one page, 1/2 of another, the third a full page and the next one both sides of the page.

So that rule doesn't really make any sense.

[McDeath]

Ah, yeah. Well, I guess its possible but that's a wide variety of pages. Hard to ask now without the writers being around. As with anything it can be changed to suit the DM.

[garhkal]

That doesn't make sense though. Sure, I can see two different wizards needing a different amount of page space per spell - perhaps each one learns a different formula, etc. But for the same wizard using the same formula for the same spell on the same scroll using the same ingredients and supplies to vary in the amount of space needed makes no sense.

Its just the same, as when a mage makes a potion. DIFFERENT forumales each time.

[McDeath]

Man, that wouldn't fly in an Ultima RPG.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Its just the same, as when a mage makes a potion. DIFFERENT forumales each time.

But that doesn't make sense either. If I make beef stew (for example) 4 times this year the "formula" (recipe) doesn't change. It's not like one time I use beef and another time fish and another time chicken. It's always the same. And I use the same amount of each ingredient each time. It's always the same.

Now I can see potions having different formulas if you're talking about different mages or alchemists brewing it. Each one might have a different formula. For example, a potion of poison brewed by one mage or alchemist might use arsenic and wyvern venom, while another uses belladonna and scorpion venom as base ingredients.

I can, for example, consult 3 different Traditional Chinese Medicine doctors for a lung condition and end up with 3 different herbal formulas. Sometimes a classical formula has variants based on regions, etc. But if you have the "recipe" for a potion, then you always make it the same way using the same ingredients.

[garhkal]

Well, you also don't get the same potions always smelling/looking the same.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

[garhkal]

Since potions found in treasure hauls, don't generally have the same look/taste/smell, for those of the same TYPE of potion (IE not all healing potions have the same identifying features), it kind of stands to reason, making them also won't have it that way. So why would potions be that way, and not scroll making?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I'm not making myself clear somehow.

Yes, if two different mages or alchemists make the same potion - say a potion of poison - the two mages or alchemists might use a different formula or different ingredients to make the potions. So they might look, taste and feel different on the tongue.

But if the same mage or alchemist is making multiple potions from the same formula, then it will be identical. For example, if you and I each make beef stew, both our recipes may turn out looking and tasting very different. I use orange peel in my beef stew recipe, for example. You might not. McDeath may come along and make his version of beef stew that contains sweet potaotes, which neither of our recipes has. One of us may use beef stock for the liquid, one of us might use water or vegetable soup stock. One of us might make the stew very soup-like, one of us might make his beef stew very thick and gravy-like. The third person might make theirs in between.

But when I make my particular beef stew, it's always the same. Same recipe, same ingredients. It always looks and tastes the same. Likewise for potions.

And for scrolls, I explained that before, how if I write the same paragraph on 5 pages of lined paper, it's always going to fill the same space, the same number of lines. But if you or McDeath write the same paragraph on a sheet of paper, it might take up more or less space than mine did. Maybe one of you writes in bigger font, or uses cursive and the words take up more space. Or one of you might write in a very compact style with a smaller font (so to speak) and your written paragraph will take up less space.

I just don't see the rule making sense, because it's talking about the same mage writing the same spells from the same formula and making the same potion from the same recipe.

[McDeath]

Sometimes (well oftentimes, lately), I get really lazy and my typing and writing suffer.