Honest debate - or not?

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:54 pm

Eh...a bit off topic, but something I've had as a pet peeve for many years. Debate. Or rather, the inability of some people to engage in debate. Over the years, I've debated people on various forums (as well as face-to-face) on everything from politics to demi-human level limits. And one thing I've noticed it a particular lack of ability of so many people to debate the salient points in any debate. And no matter how you try to get them to focus, they cannot. And then there's just the rudeness/arrogance aspect. Let me give you an example.

I was searching for one of my old posts over at DF, where I wrote some extensive material, so I can copy and archive it. And as usually happens, something catches my eye and I end up reading into it a bit. Usually it's the same old nonsense, but once in awhile something catches my eye worth noticing. And there it was...yet another idiotic demi-human level limit debate, with people contorting themselves into knots trying to "fix" something that is less than even a non-problem.

A member named Storm11 (who seems to have his shit together) pointed out the absurdity of the situation. And he stated a very good point, as I have before. Let me go find it...

"Getting hysterical about the fact that only a couple of humans in an adventuring party suddenly means the whole world becomes a place where every average Demi-human keeps humans as slaves and chattel is just hyperbole and utterly ridiculous."

He's 100% right. We've been over this a thousand times, and I've disproven that insane claim a thousand times. Now he's disproving it. And what happens? One of the troll/idiots over there, Thorfinn Skullsplitter, responds:

" IIRC, yours is the first mention of chattel slavery in the thread. There's the ridiculous hyperbole.

Reading for comprehension used to be a thing. Yeah, I know now with the intarwebs it's kewl to take things out of context and score cheap points by being rude. I kind of miss the old way..."

As usual, favored members are allowed to run roughshod over less popular members, with personal attacks being considered appropriate as well as a proper substitute for debate.

And really, is Thorfinn right? No. He might be able to argue that technically no one in the discussion mentioned human chattel and slavery. I didn't read every single post and sentence, but let's assume that no one actually mentioned that. Who cares? We all know what Storm11 is talking about, right? We've all had these debates repeatedly over the course of years, in some cases decades. He's clearly referring to the oft-repeated (and equally often refuted) refrain of doom proclaimed by the 2E DMG:

"Also, if humans are weak, will other races treat them with contempt? With pity? Will they be enslaved? All things considered, humans could have a very bad time of it. [snip] The world would be be dominated by these extremely powerful beings [demi-humans of high level], to the exclusion of humans."

- 2E DMG, pg. 14

And may the writer of that claim in the 2E DMG be damned to Hell for stupidity. What a poor writer. He's clearly trying to make an argument for a stupid rule without thinking about it clearly. Sophistry. It's clearly the stupidest argument I've ever heard made for just about any topic.

And so that's what passes for debate these days. God forbid we touch on politics. It's like debating with people locked in an insane asylum. People are no longer interested in truth or facts, just in bolstering whatever arbitrarily chosen "side" they're on espouses.

In some threads I posted point-by-point how and why the whole "high level demi-humans will rule the world and destroy humans" canard is nonsensical, ridiculous, illogical, and just plain wrong. But if you look at those posts simply to study how people argue/debate, you'll see that virtually no one ever addresses the argument point-by-point or even focuses on one point. They just ignore evidence to the contrary, which is by definition being delusional. I guess the world is riddled with delusion these days.

Post by **McDeath** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:58 pm

It’s only going to be a problem if the DM makes the campaign world like that. Since when is there a timer ticking in the campaign world where hundreds of years are just ticking away and the DM is calculation population of EVERYTHING? Pshhh... how many CRPGs and MMOs have NO demihuman or creature level limits? Not many unless it’s D&D. Limits, no limits, I hardly usually care. It was nifty back in my first D&D days with Moldvay and some BECMI but if you discount CRPGs. Then I’ve had maybe 1 player hit level 9 or 10. That’s it. They die or campaign ends.

Tactical games like say Disciples doesn’t have level limits but races oppose each other. Many of those games have that and domination is the game. It’s a fantasy game for fun. There are times various rules are just annoying. My family group made shit up and we did a lot of talk and roleplay instead of die rolling every second.

Post by **Halaster Blackcloak** » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:14 pm

McDeath wrote:

It’s only going to be a problem if the DM makes the campaign world like that. Since when is there a timer ticking in the campaign world where hundreds of years are just ticking away and the DM is calculation population of EVERYTHING?

Even then, it can't be a problem, really. I've always outlined how there have to be certain criteria that have to be met in order for that claim (demi-humans taking over the world) to be true.

I forget the list off hand, but basically they need to have:

1. The ability to do so
2. The motivation to do so
3. The desire to do so

Just because they (possibly could) have the ability to do so, doesn't mean they have a motivation to do so. Even if they have the (theoretical) motivation to do so doesn't mean they have the desire to do so.

And as Storm11 pointed out over at DF, elves (which is the only race people seem to mention when debating this...I've never heard dire prognostications of halflings taking over the world, for example) are a reclusive race. Whether it's Tolkein we're reading, or 2E AD&D or any edition of Forgotten Realms, the elves are in decline and leaving the world of man to isolate themselves. So even if there were tons of elves who were 50th level, by the time they reach those levels they will have already retired from participating in the affairs of men and the rest of the world. And he also rightly mentions how adventurers from any race are rare - 99% of all humans, elves, gnomes, etc are simply 0th level commoners. So a small handful of high level demi-humans is not going to change the equation.

Pshhh... how many CRPGs and MMOs have NO demihuman or creature level limits? Not many unless it’s D&D. Limits, no limits, I hardly usually care.

Good point! I've never, ever seen a campaign (much less a world) ruined because demi-human level limits were removed. I HAVE seen countless campaigns where demi-human level limits were removed without any fuss or consequence, while retaining in-game logic and suspension of disbelief. Those two facts right there destroy any 2E DMG argument about elves enslaving humans.