1E - Illusionists are more powerful - really?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

In the 1E PHB, it says (on pg. 26), concerning the illusionist:

"A perusal of the number and types of spells usable by illusionists (see CHARACTER SPELLS) will reveal that they are at least as powerful as normal magic users and possibly slightly more potent at very high levels."

Really? How does Gygax come to this conclusion? First of all, illusionist spells only go up to 7th level, not 9th level as they do for magic-users. Arguably the most powerful illusionist spell is alter reality, which is essentially the equivalent of the 7th level magic user spell limited wish.

Also, wizards get far more powerful spells such as gate, trap the soul, symbol, meteor swarm, power word kill, time stop, etc. Magic users get more powerful damage spells, more variety of spells and higher level spells.

Yes, played by a creative, intelligent player, the illusionist is a force to be reckoned with. But I can't see him as anywhere near as powerful as the magic user, much less "more potent at very high levels".

Anyone else ever come across a problem with this?

[Mira]

I think the illusionist's main advantage in the old Vancian magic system is that one spell can be used to do SO many different things. Demi-Shadow Magic could mimic any damage spell a mage had. Shadow Monsters could be any type of creature. It's less of a guessing game as to which spells will be needed for a particular day. (and why I have always hated that system ) We had a spell slot system that we used to give more flexibility to casters (I think I've posted it here before) which worked well for us. Some of those spells that would NEVER get used normally, sometimes got used

Illusions were quite powerful when the player was creative! And if you look at the spells that can reverse effects, Alter Reality was always listed on the same ones as Wish. So it's not just a Limited Wish, it's considerably more powerful.

Mira (Two wrongs are only the beginning)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

True, but even then, the illusionist spells were weaker. For example, demi-shadow monsters created by an illusionist have less than half their normal hit points (40% of normal) and do only 40% of the regular damage a real monster would do. And they're AC8. Shades (a 6th level spell) creates illusions of shadows with only 60% of hp and damage, and AC6.

And they get very few damaging spells, or powerful ones like gate, etc.

I can see potent, but not nearly as potent at magic users.

But according to the spell description for alter reality, it says it's "similar to the 7th level magic user spell limited wish". I always preferred to see it more similar to a full wish, since it is "altering reality", but going by the rules,
it seems it was intended to be weaker.

[Mira]

Look at the Shadow Monsters spells again, they do that lesser damage if the person MAKES a saving throw for the illusion. Most illusions do nothing if you make your save, those spells still do damage. and of course, they do FULL damage if the person doesn't successfully disbelieve the spell. (they have to actively try to disbelieve, then make the saving throw)

Same with the Shadow Magic spells, they can do full damage just like the real spells do if they don't disbelieve it, they still do some damage even if you do disbelieve it.

There are a number of items who have adverse effects that can only be countered by Wish or Alter Reality (stated in the descriptions) Limited Wish can't do it. Since Alter Reality ages you 3 years vs Wish's 5 years, you could say Wish is more powerful, but Limited Wish is 1 year. It's power by that correlation would be between Wish and Limited Wish.

Still, I only played one illusionist and found out how awful they are to use against undead and other monsters who ignore such. Mages have spells that work on everything.

Mira (The attention span of a computer is only as long as its electrical cord)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Ah, thanks Mira! Went back and re-read those spells. You're right. That makes them quite a bit better. Even so, most of the shadow monsters they can summon are pretty weak when you think about it though. If we take a 12 HD monster that normally has an AC:0 and does 1d10 damage per hit, that monster has on average 54 hp and averages 5.5 pts. of damage per hit. The shadow monster version an illusionist would create of it would have just 21 hp, have an AC:8 and do just on average 2.2 pts. of damage. It's a 5th level spell.

Compare that to some MU spells at 5th level - feeblemind, cloudkill, conjure elemental. Even a 3rd level MU spell like fireball would do far, far more damage.

I'm just really not seeing how the PHB claims they are more potent at higher levels, when they don't even get 8th or 9th level spells like MUs do. Sure, a well played illusionist can be lethal, but I still just can't wrap my head around the whole "more potent than a magic user at higher levels" thing.

[Mira]

Probably at the very high levels, the illusionist falls short, but in the middle levels, they can arguably be better for a few things.

The Paralyzation spell, level 3, PERMANENT duration.
(same with Blindness and Deafness, level 2)

Summon Shadow, level 5, creates a lot of Shadows, along with all that strength draining.

Improved Invisibilty and Non-Detection weren't available to mages back then.

Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic had it's uses at times, you could use it against fire resistant creatures and that 2 points/level on a save would be more than a fireball's quartered damage sometimes, it's not real fire after all, so resistance doesn't work.

Against things with mental defenses, they were essentially worthless. But they were powerful against everything else, especially with the flexibility of their spells. (though with the spell slot system we used, mages had flexibility too )

Mira (Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I love summon shadows! Any such force multiplier spell is awesome.

I would love to run a 1E campaign with one of my all time best players playing an illusionist. That would have been fun!