Are worgs irredeamably evil?

[garhkal]

Since Worgs are kind of like just LARGE wolves/dogs, does that make them irredeemably evil like orcs/hobgoblins who ride them are?

OR if a ranger (or two) spent months maybe even longer, working with a few captured ones, periodically hitting them with animal friendship/using the ranger 'befriend animal' like ability, and liberally using speak with animal, COULD a ranger, tame one and shift it from being N with evil tendencies, to even just N, or N (good tendencies)??

[McDeath]

Maybe. Then again, I saw a turkey documentary of a guy raising baby turkeys, they eventually turned on him or ran wild. There is a big possibility the WORG views its alpha state as superior and stays such. I'd wager if they got any more intelligent they'd steer towards LE and if they got dumber into the CE esp lone wolves.

If tamed cubs were brought up it might be possible but I think they'd revert quickly or die if ever in the wild.

[garhkal]

Roger that.
As a Q, since they are "Low" int, would animal friendship not work? What of speak with animal, or Charm animal, or Charm person or mammal??

[McDeath]

I'm not sure. They're practically in creature/monster territory.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I tend not to see more natural (i.e. real world and similar) animals as set in their listed alignments, i.e. I wouldn't consider a worg wolf "irredeemably" evil. Especially since the monster write up says they have a "tendency towards evil". In other words, they tend to be evil, though not always. Just like conservatives tend to be Christian but not all are. It's a tendency, not an absolute quality.

So I would argue that a ranger, as in Garhkal's example, would be able to raise one using his ranger animal empathy ability and raise it as Neutral with Good tendencies. Or perhaps even Good (probably Chaotic). But I would also argue that he would have to have raised it from a young age, before it was set into its alignment via being raised by other mainly evil worgs.

As for animal friendship, I tend to be a little loose with that spell. It says it affects animals with up to a 4 INT. Is a worg wolf with 5 INT really that much smarter than a worg with 4 INT? Enough to invalidate the spell? I personally wouldn't quibble over that. Or, perhaps the worg can be a tad below average in INT. Either way, problem solved. I don't see it as a big enough deal to even worry about. Speak with animals works regardless of the INT of the animal, so that's not an issue. It works on any animal that is not "mindless".

But going back to the ranger, I would allow him to raise the worg using his animal empathy ability without the use of the spells.

[garhkal]

Well, checking some other documents out, and the ranger friendship, won't work on worgs due to their low int, since its NOT animal int... So that's out, but speak with animals still would work...

[McDeath]

I posted this at DF. Not if it is helpful or not.

Maverick-Werewolf
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tafferling
tafferling
asked:
Worg- Warg- Tell me about them?
It’d be my pleasure!

The word “warg” comes from Old Norse “vargr” (plural “vargar”), meaning wolf; without delving too deep into the etymology, it was used to refer to various giant wolves of Norse mythology, such as Fenrir (destined to swallow Odin during Ragnarok), Skoll (destined to swallow the sun), and Hati (destined to swallow the moon).

There were other wargs/giant wolves in Norse myth, often being used as mounts to various gods and giants and other extremely powerful individuals.

Does this also make Odin’s wolves, Geri and Freki, wargs? That was never really specified. But they are giant, godly wolves, meant to be the fathers of all wolves everywhere, so… Maybe? If they are, this would make not all Norse myth wargs evil.

So where did we get our modern-day, always-evil wargs with goblins and/or orcs on their backs? Just one source - Tolkien.

Tolkien was the one who decided that wargs are these giant brutish evil wolf monsters that are semi-intelligent (unlike the ugly absurd hyena mutations in the movies; in the books, they are capable of speech, even if they are honestly still incredibly daft) and willingly allied themselves with the forces of evil. But instead of being incredibly powerful, godlike beings, they were just simple monsters ridden by equally as simple monsters, like orcs.

They were often, in the books, also referred to as being paired up with Tolkien’s unfortunate idea of “werewolves” (that were really nothing like werewolves at all), though those didn’t directly appear in the LotR series itself. (Side-note: I love Tolkien’s world. I DO NOT love his wargs, and I especially loathe his supposed “werewolves.”)

And where did we get the word “worg?” That was all D&D. When oldschool Dungeons and Dragons were wholesale ripping off every single aspect of Tolkien (balor = balrog, halfling = hobbit, mithral = mithril, etc), they got into trouble for using all the exact same words as Tolkien did in what was essentially, at that time, also just Tolkien’s setting slightly rebranded. So they swapped the A for an O.

Where does that leave Game of Thrones, then, with their “wargs” that are “skinwalkers” who can “warg” (verb) into animals and stuff and see through their eyes? There were plenty of legends about people in Norse myth especially (also some in Eastern Europe, even some in Scotland) able to enter the bodies of animals while they slept.

Some werewolf legends even worked this way. But no, “warg” is not a verb, ala “warging.” That just means “wolfing,” not “entering something else’s consciousness.”

So the modern concept of wargs is just yet another major fantasy element that Tolkien alone brought into broader popular culture. Yes, he based it in Norse myth, as he did many aspects of his universe (except orcs, which were all his own creation), but he is the one who decided they’re all evil.

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Faiziadus
1 yr. ago
Wargs are a special breed of particularly evil wolves capable of communicating with orcs. They are highly intelligent and have their own speech and, yes, they’re evil, but nothing’s intrinsically evil in middle earth, not even Sauron or Morgoth.

As Tolkien himself said, “Nothing is evil in the beginning.”

Tolkien Medieval & Modern
In a Hole in the Ground

And my last response.

I don't think I've ever ran into a wild mother anything that didn't view humans as a threat and would defend their young ferociously or flee/lure and sometimes just abandon due to self preservation. If caged, they're likely to hate as these aren't normal animals. They may even deceive. Funny thing about young and mothers, some inherently develope the traits of the parents like spiders and various critters, hard to say if Worgs are similar. They probsbly have their own speak and due to their ability to hear and smell and see so well the mothers could be whispering vengeance into the pups to be cunning and turn on the humans. Charms might cloud thrm for a while but eventually those wear off. At an opportune time of weakness it is likely they'll leave or strike.


Edit.... maybe Tolkien and Pillars of Pentegarn cloud my judgement but I like have some creatures just evil as well (like some state in that DF thread). Pillars of Pentegarn had evil bats even and I'd extend that to certain rats (probably more of a variant animal creature similar to wargs).