How do YOU handle COMMAND (the 1st lev spell)

[garhkal]

Over on DF we are having a long ish thread on the first level priest spell "Command", and whether it's dickish or such of DM's to rule that the one word command, IF AMBIGUOUS IN meaning can be nerfed.
IE a foe knows some nasty secret that could harm his tribe, but is also standing next to an ally.. IF a priest hit him with the Command "BETRAY", What exactly does that mean? Does he now backstab/attack his ally? DOES hE shout out the secret he knows? Does he do something else?
What of a situation where there's an orc that stands near a table, with a drink (of poison on), but he also has a wine/water skin on himself? Would a command to "DRINK" Instantly make him take ONLY A DRINK of the poison (which was the hope of the PC who did the command), or would he simply drink what he already HAS on himself?

If you did a command of 'Run', to an enemy, how do you handle WHERE he runs, especially if there's multiple ways TO RUN..such as a corridor to his right, left AND rear??

In otherwords, how do YOU as a DM handle this spell?
Have you codified what words work?
Have you let players, say "THIS is what i want it to actually do"?
Do you run it differently, if its a PC casting it on an enemy VS that same enemy casting it ON THE PC?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

A command spell consists of only one single word, one command. It is a one-word instruction.

But I've always used a simple test for that spell, in order to determine what happens. The test consists of imagining or thinking of the spell as being phrased as: "I command you to __________", even though the command actually spoken is only a single word.

So for example...

"Dance" would be thought of or imagined as "I command you to dance."

"Sleep" would be thought of as "I command you to sleep."

"Sing" would be thought of as "I command you to sing."

Kneel would be thought of as "I command you to kneel."

These are very clear commands. They tell you precisely what to do. In each case, you are telling the victim what to do using a single command word, even if thought of as a phrase:

"Kneel" = "I command you to kneel."

But when you use command in an attempt to convey concepts, instead of single action verbs, the spell doesn't work correctly. For example...

An enemy standing near the edge of a cliff is commanded to "jump". Does he jump off the cliff? Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not, because if someone yells "jump", you usually jump straight up into the air. So the victim in this case would most likely simply jump up and down. The command would be thought of as this:

"I command you to jump."

The action of jumping can mean different things, including jumping up and down, not off a cliff. The spell cannot be phrased or thought of as:

"I command you to jump off the cliff."

because the command word in that phrase would consist of 4 words - "jump off the cliff" (as opposed to the one word "kneel" in the previous example).

I hope that's making sense so far.

Likewise, a command of "run" would probably simply make the victim take off running in the direction in which he was facing at the time of the command. He would naturally avoid objects, but he would be compelled to run in whatever direction he was facing. I would rule that if the victim was facing a fire or cliff or some other dangerous obstacle, he would not mindlessly run into it.

In the example of the command "drink", the victim would most likely simply drink whatever he is carrying, something he normally drinks (water or wine from a wineskin, etc). We could think of the command as:

"I command you to drink."

But not as:

"I command you to drink that vial of poison."

A command of "betray" has no meaning. It's a verb that need a noun or phrase to make sense. "Betray" what?

"I command you to betray" has no meaning. What precisely are you being asked to betray?

Likewise, a command of "reveal" could have many meanings. Reveal your secret command word. Reveal your wealth. Reveal your plan to backstab a member of the party in order to steal his share of the gold. Reveal your secret love for the king's daughter. Hell, it could mean pull your damn pants down and reveal yourself! That's what I would do if an enemy NPC tried using that command on my character:

Bad guy: "Reveal!"
My character: (Pulls his pants down) "There you go!"



So when it's an obvious command like sleep or kneel or whatever, that's what they do. When it's a somewhat ambiguous command such as "jump" because you're hoping he jumps off the cliff, I would rule that the victim simply jumps up and down. When a command is spoken that is meaningless without clarification (which cannot be provided as per the spell description) such as "reveal", or "betray" or "admit", I would rule that the victim just stares blankly at the caster that round, as if to say: "What the fuck are you talking about?".

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Left out the last question. I always have spells work the same for NPCs and PCs. So however the spell works for (or on) the PCs, is how it works for (or on) the NPCs or monsters.

[garhkal]

But I've always used a simple test for that spell, in order to determine what happens. The test consists of imagining or thinking of the spell as being phrased as: "I command you to __________", even though the command actually spoken is only a single word.

I've had a few dms in the past, who actually LET YOU phrase the Command, as an actual short sentence.. SO if you were saying "YIELD" (the one word command), he'd let you say it as, "BY XYZ's might, YIELD!" Or something of that nature. Most dm's though, DO follow the "its only one word"..

But when you use command in an attempt to convey concepts, instead of single action verbs, the spell doesn't work correctly. For example...

An enemy standing near the edge of a cliff is commanded to "jump". Does he jump off the cliff? Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not, because if someone yells "jump", you usually jump straight up into the air. So the victim in this case would most likely simply jump up and down. The command would be thought of as this:

"I command you to jump."

The action of jumping can mean different things, including jumping up and down, not off a cliff. The spell cannot be phrased or thought of as:

Hence why i brought this question up..

Likewise, a command of "run" would probably simply make the victim take off running in the direction in which he was facing at the time of the command. He would naturally avoid objects, but he would be compelled to run in whatever direction he was facing. I would rule that if the victim was facing a fire or cliff or some other dangerous obstacle, he would not mindlessly run into it.

Which is why i much prefer, FLEE. or "Retreat" Easier to get them to go AWAY..

In the example of the command "drink", the victim would most likely simply drink whatever he is carrying, something he normally drinks (water or wine from a wineskin, etc). We could think of the command as:

"I command you to drink."

But not as:

"I command you to drink that vial of poison."

That was one of the examples someone brought up on DF where it was discussed... Would YOU let it force the guy to drink that vial of poison sitting on the table, or IF they had their own refreshments on them, would they just drink IT!...

A command of "betray" has no meaning. It's a verb that need a noun or phrase to make sense. "Betray" what?

"I command you to betray" has no meaning. What precisely are you being asked to betray?

Which was the INITIAL MAIN question of that thread..
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/view ... =1&t=88563

SOME do think it would compel the target, to 'stab an ally in the back', others like me, would say it wouldn't work, as What DO they bretray? Could they just tell a secret, that they promised to keep for a friend?

Likewise, a command of "reveal" could have many meanings. Reveal your secret command word. Reveal your wealth. Reveal your plan to backstab a member of the party in order to steal his share of the gold. Reveal your secret love for the king's daughter. Hell, it could mean pull your damn pants down and reveal yourself! That's what I would do if an enemy NPC tried using that command on my character:

In that case, i'd just command "STRIP".. Works great to get someone in good armor, to start getting OUT of it!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

I've had a few dms in the past, who actually LET YOU phrase the Command, as an actual short sentence.. SO if you were saying "YIELD" (the one word command), he'd let you say it as, "BY XYZ's might, YIELD!" Or something of that nature. Most dm's though, DO follow the "its only one word"..

I could see saying something like that. Say, for example: "In the name of Mighty Odin, I command you to sleep!"

With the understanding that the extraneous verbiage has no bearing on the spell. What I mean is, in that example the words: "In the name of Mighty Odin, I command you to..." are just window dressing, with the one-word actual command being: "sleep!".

I would not allow something along the lines of:

"In the name of Mighty Odin, I command you to jump off that cliff!"

because the words "off that cliff" are not just extraneous words, they are qualifiers of the command word "jump". If that makes sense. In other words, it's a command that is a phrase, not a single word:

Jump - vs - jump off that cliff

Which is why i much prefer, FLEE. or "Retreat" Easier to get them to go AWAY..

Great point! Simply saying "run" may make the victim run towards the caster. Flee would imply abandoning the area, and retreat would have him draw back. Words have meaning!

That was one of the examples someone brought up on DF where it was discussed... Would YOU let it force the guy to drink that vial of poison sitting on the table, or IF they had their own refreshments on them, would they just drink IT!...

Yeah, to me making the person drink the poison would be absolutely disallowed in the way described. He's not told what to drink, he's simply told to drink and his natural reaction would be to take a sip from his wine skin. But there are ways around that, which do not violate the one-word requirement. Let's say the priest hands a bottle of poison to the victim as he shouts the command "drink". I would rule that the victim would then be compelled to drink it even if knowing it was poison. The reason being, the command is clear - he is being handed something and ordered to drink that substance. It is not a vague command of "drink" where the victim can choose from his wineskin, a flask of poison on the table, a potion he has in his rucksack, etc.

SOME do think it would compel the target, to 'stab an ally in the back', others like me, would say it wouldn't work, as What DO they bretray? Could they just tell a secret, that they promised to keep for a friend?

The people at DF make the worst arguments, I swear! It's grade school English.

Intransitive verbs (sleep, run, jump) do not pass action onto a noun.

Joe slept.
Joe ran.
Joe jumped.

Transitive verbs require a noun, an object to pass action onto.

Joe hit the wall. (What did he hit? Simply saying "Joe hit" is an incomplete sentence).
Joe slapped that bitch. (Who did he slap? Simply saying "Joe slapped" is nonsensical.)
Joe caught the ball. (What did he catch? Simply saying "Joe caught" is a partial concept.)

So any command - because it must be a single word - must be an intransitive verb. You can command Joe to "run", but you cannot command him to "hit the wall". If you simply command him to "hit", he'll probably attack the spellcaster!

Betray, being a transitive verb, has no meaning on its own as a command. My standard solution, whenever the caster has incorrectly used the spell using a transitive verb, is to simply have the victim stare at the caster in confusion for that round. Unless I can come up with some more interesting action based on a poorly worded command.

In that case, i'd just command "STRIP".. Works great to get someone in good armor, to start getting OUT of it!

Oh good one! Even though the spell only lasts one round, that command ("strip") is devastating. The victim must sheath or put down his weapon (and shield if he has one) and begin removing his clothing, starting with outer armor. It takes one round to take off most armor (leather, studded leather, hide, splint mail, chain mail, etc.). So once the command wears off, the victim is stuck doing one of two things - either he has to spend the round picking up his weapon or unsheathing it and attacking (with a much worse AC) or he must spend the next round or two (depending on whether or not he has assistance) donning his armor.

Great strategy!

[garhkal]

I could see saying something like that. Say, for example: "In the name of Mighty Odin, I command you to sleep!"

With the understanding that the extraneous verbiage has no bearing on the spell. What I mean is, in that example the words: "In the name of Mighty Odin, I command you to..." are just window dressing, with the one-word actual command being: "sleep!".

In my VERY early DMing career, i used to allow that too.. BUT these days, i tend to be more "it can only be one word' not a phrase.. ESPCIALLY since the Spells and magic book added in the Dictate version (iirc L3).

Great point! Simply saying "run" may make the victim run towards the caster. Flee would imply abandoning the area, and retreat would have him draw back. Words have meaning!

Plus if say done on one of the leaders, or the like, it may spur OTHER enemies to flee too (morale roll).

Oh good one! Even though the spell only lasts one round, that command ("strip") is devastating. The victim must sheath or put down his weapon (and shield if he has one) and begin removing his clothing, starting with outer armor. It takes one round to take off most armor (leather, studded leather, hide, splint mail, chain mail, etc.). So once the command wears off, the victim is stuck doing one of two things - either he has to spend the round picking up his weapon or unsheathing it and attacking (with a much worse AC) or he must spend the next round or two (depending on whether or not he has assistance) donning his armor.

Worse if he stripped by CUTTING THE straps of said armoR!!