Ioun stones and level raises??

[garhkal]

One of the Ioun stones, "when circling a character" raises his level.

NOW if he's a Multi-classed character, is that one level for EACH CLASS, or just one class?
IF he's a dual class human, does it just raise the level of his CURRENTLY ACTIVE class, or both his current and his prior class??

How do YOU RUN IT?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

To keep balance, and since it says "adds 1 level", I would only add a level to the higher of the two classes. Adding it to both would be adding two levels.

[garhkal]

Hence my question.. is that highest "XP needed", so a mage-thief, would have it add to his mage side?

Is that given to a class Selected by the player? IF so, is that always going to be the case with that specific stone?
Is it given to the one that is the highest level right now?? So in that mage-thief's case if he was say 5th level as a mage, but 7th right now as a thief, his thief side is now 8th??

When up, does it increase Everything (IE for mages/priests) does it NOW ALLOW them to access new magic; IE that mage went from 6th to 7th level, can he now cast 4th level spells? OR does it just increase WHAT he is for the spells he has? Does it grant new weapon/non-weapon slots???
Does a mage who has one twirling, suddenly learn a new spell since BTB Every time a mage levels up, he gains one new spell??

And lastly, IF say George mcduk, the ranger, has it twirling and so is now 'effectively' 6th level, and gets touched by a Wight, DOES HE lose his 5th level (then add 1 from the stone)< or does the STONE itself, get drained, leaving his actual level as is??

One other thing someone asked i remember.. IF say a fighter, who had a 17 str, but only say a 15 dexterity, managed to get 2 of the dex raising stones and had them twirling, COULD HE NOW DUAL class into thief??

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Hence my question.. is that highest "XP needed", so a mage-thief, would have it add to his mage side?

I'd say by the class with the highest level, i.e. a fighter/mage who is a 5th level fighter and a 4th level mage would add to his fighter side, so 6th level. I never compare xp outside of analytical stuff.

Is that given to a class Selected by the player? IF so, is that always going to be the case with that specific stone?

I could see going several ways.

1. It adds to the class that is highest, since that's the dominant class
2. It adds to the class that is lowest, in order to boost the lower class
3. It adds to one of the classes, rolled randomly
4. It adds to either one of the classes, determined by the player
5. It adds to either one of the classes, determined by the DM
6. It adds to the class that would gain the most benefit from gaining a level *

* So for example, if the character was a F5/W4, it would be better to give the level boost to the wizard side of his dual or multiclass, because the fighter side - going up to 6th, only gains a point to thaco and a few hp, whereas going up to W5 would give him access to 3rd level spells, which would be more beneficial.

It could be done any of those ways. I personally prefer #1 because it gives the highest (highest) level of all those options. I also like the idea #6 because it maxes out how useful the ioun stone is.

When up, does it increase Everything (IE for mages/priests) does it NOW ALLOW them to access new magic; IE that mage went from 6th to 7th level, can he now cast 4th level spells? OR does it just increase WHAT he is for the spells he has? Does it grant new weapon/non-weapon slots??? Does a mage who has one twirling, suddenly learn a new spell since BTB Every time a mage levels up, he gains one new spell??

It should increase everything, since it's for all practical purposes a gain of a level. So a 6th level wizard using the stone and going up to 7th level would then be able to cast 4th level spells. I'd say yes to proficiency slots of both kinds, although I've always felt that the player needs to spend time actually learning the skills. Its not a magical gain, it's from practicing the skill. And yes, I'd give the mage a new spell as well, same as a normal level gain.

And lastly, IF say George mcduk, the ranger, has it twirling and so is now 'effectively' 6th level, and gets touched by a Wight, DOES HE lose his 5th level (then add 1 from the stone)< or does the STONE itself, get drained, leaving his actual level as is??

Tricky question, but here's how I'd think it through. Wights drain life essence ("levels") because of their connection to the Negative Material Plane, as all draining undead do. I've never seen - anywhere at any time in the game, whether in rule books or adventures - any instance of level draining undead draining a magical device. So if the ranger was 5th level normally, but 6th with the stone twirling, I would rule that it drops his natural level to 4th, so he'd be 5th level with the stone spinning around.

[garhkal]

I could see going several ways.

1. It adds to the class that is highest, since that's the dominant class
2. It adds to the class that is lowest, in order to boost the lower class
3. It adds to one of the classes, rolled randomly
4. It adds to either one of the classes, determined by the player
5. It adds to either one of the classes, determined by the DM
6. It adds to the class that would gain the most benefit from gaining a level *

* So for example, if the character was a F5/W4, it would be better to give the level boost to the wizard side of his dual or multiclass, because the fighter side - going up to 6th, only gains a point to thaco and a few hp, whereas going up to W5 would give him access to 3rd level spells, which would be more beneficial.

It could be done any of those ways. I personally prefer #1 because it gives the highest (highest) level of all those options. I also like the idea #6 because it maxes out how useful the ioun stone is.

When up, does it increase Everything (IE for mages/priests) does it

Would it STAY the same though each time it's put up?

It should increase everything, since it's for all practical purposes a gain of a level. So a 6th level wizard using the stone and going up to 7th level would then be able to cast 4th level spells. I'd say yes to proficiency slots of both kinds, although I've always felt that the player needs to spend time actually learning the skills. Its not a magical gain, it's from practicing the skill. And yes, I'd give the mage a new spell as well, same as a normal level gain.

If they do 'gain a spell', how? is it some how magically imparted? What then happens when the stone i taken down? Does that knowledge suddenly disappear??
Does it appear in their spell book??

Tricky question, but here's how I'd think it through. Wights drain life essence ("levels") because of their connection to the Negative Material Plane, as all draining undead do. I've never seen - anywhere at any time in the game, whether in rule books or adventures - any instance of level draining undead draining a magical device. So if the ranger was 5th level normally, but 6th with the stone twirling, I would rule that it drops his natural level to 4th, so he'd be 5th level with the stone spinning around.

Well, since there are those who HAVE argued that temp levels, such as those from heroism potions, SHOULD ACT as a blocker for energy drain, I can easily see the same extending to ioun stones..

[McDeath]

With the wight you could be extremely generous and burn out the stone (gray) of have it explode since in 1e the burned out stones still have uses. Can you recharge the stone? Dunno. Can you use a batch of these level stones? 2, 3, 5, 10, 20+?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Would it STAY the same though each time it's put up?

Not sure how you mean that.

If they do 'gain a spell', how? is it some how magically imparted? What then happens when the stone i taken down? Does that knowledge suddenly disappear??
Does it appear in their spell book??

I'd argue that having a new spell magically imparted or appearing in his spell book is giving the ioun stone too much power. All it does is increase the effective (not actual) level of the character. Even when a wizard gains a level normally (through xp), he still has to research, find or copy new spells and then has to succeed an INT check (the % needed) to be able to learn a new spell.

So I would rule that the stone raises his level, and now, just as he would if he had gained that level through adventuring and earning xp, he now has to find, copy, or research the new spell and see if his INT check succeeds in learning it.

Once the stone is taken down or lost, he still has the spell in his book, he simply isn't (as yet) at a level where he can cast it. So he would either have to gain a level naturally or put the stone back on in order to be able to cast it. Now, say he added a new spell of a level he was able to cast at his non-ioun-stone-enhanced level (i.e. he went from 3rd to 4th level using the ioun stone and added an additional 2nd level spell). He could still cast the new 2nd level spell without the stone, although he would only be able to memorize one of the two 2nd level spells now in his book, in keeping with the Spells Per Level chart under the character description.

If he went up from 4th to 5th level using the ioun stone, he gains a 3rd level spell, which he cannot cast at 4th level. So when the stone is put away he cannot cast the 3rd level spell because he's now a 4th level wizard again and cannot access 3rd level spells.

I hope that made sense. Kinda complex.

Well, since there are those who HAVE argued that temp levels, such as those from heroism potions, SHOULD ACT as a blocker for energy drain, I can easily see the same extending to ioun stones..

I've heard that argument, though it's not described that way in the rules. Here's how I would differentiate it. And it can work two ways I that I can see (this is a really difficult topic, I never realized it!).

First, we could rule that a magic item that increases levels does indeed "block" level drains in the following way. When hit by a level draining effect, the level lost is "taken" from the magic item. So for example, using a potion of heroism, a 5th level fighter (F5) drinks the potion and gains two levels so he is now a 7th level fighter (F7). He gets hit by twice a wight and that brings him down to F5. Likewise, an ioun stone that brings him from F5 to F6 would protect him from one hit by a wight. Once the potion wears off or the stone is put away, he's back to his original F5 level, no ill effects from the touch of the wight. I don't care for this method all that much for several reasons.

First, it makes such potions and items quick fixes to protect against level drain. Second, it causes problems with adjudication. With the potion (which lasts on average 15 rounds), does that touch of the wight drain a level from the potion just for the round, or for the duration of the potion's effect? After all, the potion is imparting magical energy into the imbiber each round for 15 rounds or so. Done this way, the wight could hit the fighter twice a round for 7+ straight rounds with no undue effect, since the touch would only negate the magic imparted by the potion in that particular round. What I mean is that doing it this way, if the fighter drank the potion and went up from say 5th to 7th level for 15 rounds, then got hit on the 1st round by the wight, he would be drained to 6th level. On the next round the wight misses and does not drain the power, so the fighter is back at 7th level for the second round. In the 3rd round, the fighter gets hit twice, losing 2 levels, so now he's back to 5th. On the 4th round the potion is not negated by the wight's touch (it misses) so he's again at 7th level.

I think that method is sort not only tedious to keep track of, but it also allows the potion so be used as a quick and powerful defense against level drain. Using this method, he could get hit by a wight twice a round for 15, even 25 rounds and not suffer any true level loss. I think that's too powerful.

The other method, using the potion (and this will related back to how I see the ioun stone working), would be where the character drinks the potion, goes from 5th to 7th level, gets hit by a wight in the first round and therefore drained to 6th level, gets hit again in the 2nd round, and therefore is back at 5th level and after that he's on his own because the potion's effects have been used up. That method is how I think most people adjudicate it when using it as a "buffer". The potion "buffered" the first two hits, then was depleted.

Here's the problem (and where get get back to the ioun stone). The ioun stone is a permanent magical item. So if we use the first method detailed above with the potion, then that character is always virtually immune to level drain, since there is no round limit on the stone's level enhancement. If he's wearing the stone, he gains this immunity 24/7/365. Every round of every day of every year, he is able to ignore a level drain. That's too much power. However, if we go with the second method of the potion, then a single level drain would destroy the stone, rendering it worthless with one hit. Neither method is desirable, as far as I'm concerned. The potion isn't such a big deal regardless of which method you use (i.e. the wight drains the magic just for that round or permanently) because honestly, how many potions of heroism do you usually have on hand? And it only lasts up to (at max) 30 rds.

But with the ioun stone, there's a big problem. Either the user is virtually permanently protected from one level drain per round for an infinite number of rounds and for as many months or years as he has possession of the stone, or the stone is destroyed by one touch of the wight - which saves him from a level drain but at the cost of a powerful, permanent magic item.

That's why I prefer to have the touch of a level draining undead simply drain the actual life force - the true original (without magic enhancement) level - of the victim. I'd say the magic that imparts the level increase is not the same as the life force drained from a living being. That way, the magic items aren't wasted, nor do they give permanent or even powerful short term immunity to level drains. So a character - say a F4 - using an ioun stone (and therefore now a F5) gets hit by a wight, he is now back to a F4, but when he takes the stone off he is a F3. It drained the character, not the stone. Same for the potion. Say the F4 drinks a potion of super-heroism and gains 4 levels. He is now a F8. He gets hit in the first round by the wight, he is now a F7, but when the potion wears off, he is now a F3 because the drain came from his original level, not the potion.

Garhkal, this topic is making my head spin!

[garhkal]

With the wight you could be extremely generous and burn out the stone (gray) of have it explode since in 1e the burned out stones still have uses. Can you recharge the stone? Dunno. Can you use a batch of these level stones? 2, 3, 5, 10, 20+?

I know from searching dragon, and some other sources, only the STAT boosting stones, can be used in multiples, but even THEY have the natural cap of 18... So no multiple levels from the ioun stones, from what it seems.. THAT SAID< i have seen one dm who DID let someone have multiple.. BUT he was also a 1/2 elf F/M/T, and had one stone, for EACH class....

Not sure how you mean that.

Johann the Baptize, a human ranger (4th), now druid (7th), has a stone up.. His DM rolled on that chart of yours and got a 2, thus increasing his ranger side. He goes to bed (or does something else, requiring him to remove the stone from circling him). Next morning he tosses it back up, does it STICK on his ranger side, or now is it boosting his druid side? IE when he takes it down, then reactivates it a while later, does he REROLL on that chart, or is what he initially rolled on that chart, when he first used it, WHAT that specific stone will always grant??

I'd argue that having a new spell magically imparted or appearing in his spell book is giving the ioun stone too much power. All it does is increase the effective (not actual) level of the character. Even when a wizard gains a level normally (through xp), he still has to research, find or copy new spells and then has to succeed an INT check (the % needed) to be able to learn a new spell.

So I would rule that the stone raises his level, and now, just as he would if he had gained that level through adventuring and earning xp, he now has to find, copy, or research the new spell and see if his INT check succeeds in learning it.

Once the stone is taken down or lost, he still has the spell in his book, he simply isn't (as yet) at a level where he can cast it. So he would either have to gain a level naturally or put the stone back on in order to be able to cast it. Now, say he added a new spell of a level he was able to cast at his non-ioun-stone-enhanced level (i.e. he went from 3rd to 4th level using the ioun stone and added an additional 2nd level spell). He could still cast the new 2nd level spell without the stone, although he would only be able to memorize one of the two 2nd level spells now in his book, in keeping with the Spells Per Level chart under the character description.

If he went up from 4th to 5th level using the ioun stone, he gains a 3rd level spell, which he cannot cast at 4th level. So when the stone is put away he cannot cast the 3rd level spell because he's now a 4th level wizard again and cannot access 3rd level spells.

I hope that made sense. Kinda complex.

So its more Giving him the CHANCE to gain a new spell..

The other method, using the potion (and this will related back to how I see the ioun stone working), would be where the character drinks the potion, goes from 5th to 7th level, gets hit by a wight in the first round and therefore drained to 6th level, gets hit again in the 2nd round, and therefore is back at 5th level and after that he's on his own because the potion's effects have been used up. That method is how I think most people adjudicate it when using it as a "buffer". The potion "buffered" the first two hits, then was depleted.

Which is how i've made MY rulings to be, after hearing all the arguments FOR allowing heroism/super heroism to work in that manner...
AND it's why i see it able to do the same with the Ioun stone.. IT soaks up ONE level loss, and then becomes useless.. NOT turned to a dusty grey stone, USELESS>

But with the ioun stone, there's a big problem. Either the user is virtually permanently protected from one level drain per round for an infinite number of rounds and for as many months or years as he has possession of the stone, or the stone is destroyed by one touch of the wight - which saves him from a level drain but at the cost of a powerful, permanent magic item.

Given the choice, i think MANY players would be willing to sacrifice a perm mag item, to be saved from a level drain.. Just like i've seen some who've advocated for "letting shields splinter', to abosorb ONE BIG melee strike.. IT soaks the damage, but gets shattered in the process, whether a normal shield or magical one..

Garhkal, this topic is making my head spin!

That means you're having to think!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Johann the Baptize, a human ranger (4th), now druid (7th), has a stone up.. His DM rolled on that chart of yours and got a 2, thus increasing his ranger side. He goes to bed (or does something else, requiring him to remove the stone from circling him). Next morning he tosses it back up, does it STICK on his ranger side, or now is it boosting his druid side? IE when he takes it down, then reactivates it a while later, does he REROLL on that chart, or is what he initially rolled on that chart, when he first used it, WHAT that specific stone will always grant??

Ah, I see! Thanks for clearing that up. Just a note of clarification, I didn't intend that list to be used as a chart to roll on, though I suppose you could use it as such. I only meant it as a list of the various logical and possible ways I could think of when it comes to how to handle the issue.

Me personally, I like the idea of the ranger/druid being able to decide which of his classes to apply the stone's power each time he activates it. That gives the most flexibility and probably the most player enjoyment.

So its more Giving him the CHANCE to gain a new spell..

Exactly! He still has to find or copy or research a spell as he would going up in level normally. The stone essentially provides the "xp" so to speak, that allows the level raise, but the work is still up to the character.

Which is how i've made MY rulings to be, after hearing all the arguments FOR allowing heroism/super heroism to work in that manner...
AND it's why i see it able to do the same with the Ioun stone.. IT soaks up ONE level loss, and then becomes useless.. NOT turned to a dusty grey stone, USELESS>

But useless permanently, or temporarily? And if temporarily, how do we determine how long it stays useless?

Given the choice, i think MANY players would be willing to sacrifice a perm mag item, to be saved from a level drain.. Just like i've seen some who've advocated for "letting shields splinter', to abosorb ONE BIG melee strike.. IT soaks the damage, but gets shattered in the process, whether a normal shield or magical one..

Not any of my greedy, possessive players! They do love their magic items, and fear other stuff far more than level drain, as I've detailed before. But what I'm saying is that this approach is powerfully unfair in that a temporary magic item - one of the weakest sorts, a potion - can protect against 4 or even 6 touches of a wight before being used up permanently. But the permanent and generally pretty powerful magic item is destroyed by just 1 hit. It's a real imbalance.

That means you're having to think!

I think I think too much!

[garhkal]

But useless permanently, or temporarily? And if temporarily, how do we determine how long it stays useless?

Permanent... It becomes just a rock..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

That's where I think the issue becomes unbalanced. A weak potion (a temporary magic item) can withstand a half dozen or more attacks from a wight before being depleted, whereas a powerful permanent item takes one hit and is destroyed. To me that's not balanced.

[McDeath]

Didn't FR have a crown of the wyvern that had several set ioun stones and it functioned? Odd since i thought theg had to orbit.

Ah

Ioun stones are sometimes pressed into another magic item to draw on their power. The lich priestess Vermissa possesses a gold and amethyst magical earring crafted from an ioun stone, which can absorb 58 spell levels.[50] The Wyvern Crown of Cormyr has ten functioning ioun stones mounted in it.[25] Factol Darius the Veyl possesses an ioun stone bracelet which stores spells, while Erin Darkflame Montgomery has a purple ioun stone set in a silver tiara.[51]
The ioun blade is a dagger which can have an ioun socketed into the pommel, where it affects the wielder normally.[52] The thief Eldoriel owns a ring with a functional pale lavender ioun stone embedded in it.[53]

↑ 25.0 25.1 25.2 Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (1996), p.121-122.

Although, I swore i read it in a dragon mag article

From
https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Ioun_stone

But not from
https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/items/artifactf.shtml

[garhkal]

That's where I think the issue becomes unbalanced. A weak potion (a temporary magic item) can withstand a half dozen or more attacks from a wight before being depleted, whereas a powerful permanent item takes one hit and is destroyed. To me that's not balanced.

Anyone can have ioun stones, but only fighters, can benefit (or those who are multi-classed fighters) from potions of heroism/super heroism.. AND IF THEY ARE THAT prevalent, maybe something's off..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Anyone can have ioun stones, but only fighters, can benefit (or those who are multi-classed fighters) from potions of heroism/super heroism.. AND IF THEY ARE THAT prevalent, maybe something's off..

True, but do you see the point I'm making? A lowly one-use potion can prevent a dozen attacks before being depleted whereas a permanent magical item is destroyed on the first attack. Something isn't adding up there.

[garhkal]

How so? EVEN at max, a super heroism gives +6 levels.. That's not a dozen undead attacks it's protecting against..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Typo. I meant half a dozen. But do you understand what I'm saying? A lowly potion protects from up to 6 attacks from a wight before being drained, while one hit destroys a permanent magic item? That's not making any sense to me.

[garhkal]

Well, its both getting ONE drain protection PER level given.. BUT maybe i can see nixing the bonus OF the heroism/super-heroism potions, down to just ONE level nixed from energy drain....