2e mostly. Prot from evil, BLOCKS all charm/domination??

[garhkal]

Looking up the 2e prot from evil spell, both the priest and mage version says "that it BLOCKS mental control for domination/charm like magic.. AND even in the Psi handbook, it also blocks PSIONIC domination, AND GIVES A -2 power check penalty for all OTHER telepathic powers..

I have often railed that a SIMPLE first level spell, blocking not just that,
BUT ALL charmed/enchanted/conjured/summoned foes.
AND GIVING A BONUS On ac/saves vs other evil foes, should be a HELL OF a lot higher than merely 1st level...

So how do YOU RUN PFE?

[McDeath]

Sounds a lot like simple ceremonial magic in the art of the occult. It is one of the most simple things a practitioner will learn and do next to clensing so first level is perfect.

[garhkal]

BUT why though should a simple spell, of such low level, be granting SO MANY BENEFITS.. not just vs monsters, but lots of spells, and psionic abilities too?
I CAN SEE it granting the save boost vs spells CAST By an evil guy. I can see it granting the AC boost vs evil critters.. BUT the hedging out summoned/charmed/enchanted etc, for a spell, NOT AN ACTUAL WARDING CIRCLE DRAWN ON THE FLOOR (which would then mean its NOT mobile), AND blocking mental commands from charms (especially monster dominations) and the like, is a bit much imo.

[McDeath]

I haven't compared editions OD&D, Moldvay/cook, Holmes, 1e to 2e and I wonder how similar it is or if this is yet another case of edition bloat by those writing/editing 2e. A bit of munchkinism sneaking in (or perhaps 1e articles in dragon magazine and other zines were drawn upon from questions being answered. Back in the day the groups I did game with kept the game very simplistic and one thing they preferred was using goldbox more as a standard than the actual 2e rules.

As written it doesn't make much sense. Save bonus and such is fine but imho it should be a % to keep out charm/domination per caster level not just a flat out 100%.

===== 1e priest =====

ProtectionFrom Evil (Abiuration) Reversible
Level: 1
Range: Touch
Duration: 3 rounds/level
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 4 segments Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: When this spell is cast, it acts as if it were a magical armor upon the recipient. The protection encircles the recipient at a one foot distance, thus preventing bodily contact by creatures of an enchanted or conjured nature such as aerial servants, demons, devils, djinn efreet, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, night hags, quasits, salamanders, water weirds, wind walkers, and xorn. Summoned animals or monsters are similarly hedged from the protected creature Furthermore,any and all attacks launched by evil creatures incur a penalty of -2 from dice rolls ”to hit” the protected creature, and any saving throws caused by such attacks are made at +2 on the protected creature‘s dice. This spell can be reversed to become protection from good, although it still keeps out enchanted evil creatures as well. To complete this spell, the cleric must trace a 3’ diameter circle upon the floor (or ground) with holy water for protection from evil, with blood for protection from good - or in the air using burning incense or smoldering dung with respect to evil/good.

===== 1e mu =====

Protection From Evil (Abjuration) Reversible
Level: I
Range:Touch
Duration: 2 round/level
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Components: V, S,M
CastingTime: I segment
Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: With the differences shown above, and the requirement of powdered iron and silver as the material components for tracing the magic circle for protection from evil, the spell is the same as the first level cleric protection from evil spell (q.v.).

===== 2e mu =====
Protection From Evil (Abjuration)
Reversible
Range: Touch
Duration: 2 rds./level
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Saving
Throw: None

When this spell is cast, it creates a magical barrier around the recipient at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the recipient and has three major effects:
First, all attacks made by evil (or evilly enchanted) creatures against the protected creature suffer -2 penalties to attack rolls; any saving throws caused by such attacks are made with +2 bonuses.

Second, any attempt to possess (as by a magic jar attack) or to exercise mental control over (as by a vampire's charm ability) the protected creature is blocked by this spell. Note that the protection does not prevent a vampire's charm itself, but it does prevent the exercise of mental control through the barrier. Likewise, a possessing life force is merely kept out. It would not be expelled if in place before the protection is cast.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by creatures of an extraplanar or conjured nature (such as aerial servants, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, salamanders, water weirds, xorn, and others). This causes the natural (body) weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil, if such attacks require touching the protected being. Animals or monsters summoned or conjured by spells or similar magic are likewise hedged from the character.

This protection ends if the protected character makes a melee attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.

To complete this spell, the wizard must trace a 3-foot-diameter circle on the floor (or ground) with powdered silver.

This spell can be reversed to become protection from good; the second and third benefits remain unchanged. The material component for the reverse is a circle of powdered iron.

===== 2e priest =====
Protection From Evil (Abjuration)
Reversible
Sphere: Protection Range: Touch
Duration: 3 rds./level Area of Effect: 1 creature
Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 4 Saving Throw: None
When this spell is cast, it creates a magical barrier around the recipient at a distance of

1 foot. The barrier moves with the recipient and has three major effects:

First, all attacks made by evil or evilly enchanted creatures against the protected creature receive a penalty of -2 to each attack roll, and any saving throws caused by such attacks are made by the protected creature with a +2 bonus.

Second, any attempt to exercise mental control over the protected creature (if, for example, it has been charmed by a vampire) or to invade and take over its mind (as by a ghost's magic jar attack) is blocked by this spell. Note that the protection does not prevent a vampire's charm itself, nor end it, but it does prevent the vampire from exercising mental control through the barrier. Likewise, an outside life force is merely kept out, and would not be expelled if in place before the protection was cast.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by creatures of an extraplanar or conjured nature (such as aerial servants, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, salamanders, water weirds, xorn, and others). This causes the natural (body) weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creature to recoil if such attacks require touching the protected creature. Animals or monsters summoned or conjured by spells or similar magic are likewise hedged from the character. This protection ends if the protected character makes a melee attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.

To complete this spell, the priest uses holy water or burning incense.

This spell can be reversed to become protection from good, with the second and third benefits remaining unchanged.

The material components for the reverse are a circle of unholy water or smoldering dung.

-=====
If the dominated get out of the circle or the duration ends they are controlled etc but while in the circle commands are blocked. If i look at it like a horror movie then perhaps the victims are drawn to leave the circle. I suspect a bit of person bias/gameplay goes into effect here.

[garhkal]

Which brings us to the paladin's PFE (especially if you run the 1e paladins), where its a 10ft sphere, so THEY ARE effectively always protected, vs 'vampire and other baddies CHARMS.. BECAUSE what's the use in being charmed, if the one who charmed you can't DO ANYTHING with it?!

[McDeath]

Kind of makes sense for paladins but anyone leaving the circle around him that's charmed is screwed.

[garhkal]

Then why not say 'Paladins have total immunity to being charmed.. OR magic jarred...

[McDeath]

Perhaps their field can be countered by a permanent protection vs evil 10'radius or something similar.

I've never understood if the field is always active even in sleep or once awake of after some morning prayer ritual.

As is, it looks like its an energizer bunny protection field. Perhaps the paladin can't be charmed but such attacks but those leaving the radius could be or forced into action via command after they leave.

A charmed individual can't follow new commands entering the field but I see no reason they can't finish commands given before. It doesn't say old commands are dispelled. This is more of a tactical issue if going with combat where said vampire has charmed servants or nails allies outside of the paladin's radius.

KILL HIM! Is easy and they'll try. Once in melee he can't issue a new order like "take/destroy holy relic" " disarm him" "kill the wizard quickly."

That's my view without searching the rules or articles. Its a guess. Maybe Hal will chine in or ask DF or like forum. You could ask Ravens Craig via pm on DF. He still lurks. My mouse alt has received a few pms from him.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Good lord! I can't believe I overlooked this thread for days now!

Lots of points to address. Let's see. First, as far as psionics goes, I hate psionics in AD&D. To me it belongs in Gamma World, not AD&D. It's more a sci-fi feel than a fantasy one. I never have used psionics in my AD&D games so my opinion on that would be irrelevant.

It is a pretty powerful spell for 1st level. But as I'm reading over it again to re-familiarize myself with the nuances of it, I noticed a few things that I think we're all overlooking. First, the spell itself only applies to one person or creature, the one touched. So it doesn't protect the entire party, just the one character.

The +2 saving throw bonus and -2 thaco penalty for the evil attacker isn't all that big a deal. Especially when you consider that it's a 1st level spell, so low level characters gaining a +2 bonus to a saving throw is decent, but not that big a deal when it drops the character's saving throw from say 16 - 17 to 14 - 15. There's still 70% percent chance the saving throw is failed. Even at around 9th level (mid or name level), for most classes that still only drops the saving throw to around 11 or 12, so still a greater than 50% chance the saving throw fails. Helpful, but still a coin toss at best.

As far as protecting against mental control, keep in mind that the spell does not end the mental control. So I would argue that a person charmed by a vampire and told to attack the PC protected by the spell would still attack. The spell does not end the control, and nowhere does it state that a vampire's mental control (for example) requires constant concentration. So I would rule that a vampire's charmed minion would continue to attack the protected character as directed by the vampire, subject to the -2 thaco penalty. I agree with McDeath's interpretation on this.

Concerning protecting against extra-planar creatures, two thoughts. First, how often do the PCs face off with a foe summoning extra-planar creatures? Second, it is a protection from evil spell, not a protection from neutral spell, so if the enemy summons earth/air/fire/water elementals, sylphs, aerial servants, sandlings, fire snakes, tempests, githzerai, maelephants, maruts, mediators, pers, slaad, xorn, etc., the spell has no effect since these extra-planar creatures are all neutral, not evil. Some of those (such as xorn) are listed in the spell description, but I contend those are errors because the spell is called protection from evil, not protection from extraplanar.

Finally, and this is the important line I think we all overlooked (I sure did!):

"This protection ends if the protected character makes a melee attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."

- PHB, pg. 202

The spell therefore is purely defensive and almost useless in combat. If the protected character engages in melee with or even approaches too close to the evil creature, the spell ends. All the protected character can do is stand there and take hits. Depending how you interpret this, that line either applies to every aspect of the spell (i.e. against both evil creatures and extraplanar summoned creatures) or only against extraplanar creatures, since that line appears within the paragraph describing the effects against extraplanar creatures.

So if for example a demon or devil (tanar'ri or baatezu or whichever) is summoned, the protected character cannot fight it. He can stand there and take hits with no effect, but he cannot strike back, which essentially removes him from combat. The moment he strikes back, the spell ends.

So I don't think the spell is as overpowered as it seems at first glance.

It gives a +2 bonus to saving throws, which isn't all that huge - a mere 10% bonus. It essentially increases the character's AC (via a -2 thaco penalty to the attacked), which is a mere 10% reduction in the chance of hitting the protected creature. Not all that big a deal.

It hedges out mental control, but does not prevent enemies who are controlled from attacking the protected character. Again, I agree with McDeath - the controller could not change commands given to his controlled minions, but the minion would continue with any previous commands, as McDeath suggested.

It hedges out evil extraplanar beings, but aside from devils and demons, most extraplanar creatures are neutral, so it rarely has any use and even when it does, the character cannot engage in melee with the extraplanar creature, which essentially removes the protected PC from combat.

So overall, I don't think it's as big a deal as it sounds at first glance. I do have problems with anti-magic shell, which we can create a separate thread from.

As for paladins and their 10' radius protection from evil effect, yes, it does give others the same protections as the spell, in a 10' radius. Personally, I have always thought this should have been a 10' diameter, not a 10' radius, as a 10' radius equates to a 20' diameter, which is a pretty damned large area. Note though that it provides only a -1 penalty to the evil creature's thaco (a -5% chance to hit) and does not prevent contact from extraplanar evil creatures as does the spell, nor does it state that it protects against mental control. It's essentially a weakened, watered down protection from evil spell.

I also thought the holy avenger sword was problematic since under the paladin class description it says the sword creates an aura of protection in a 20' radius that gives evil and summoned creatures a -1 penalty to their attack rolls, yet under the sword description in the DMG, it does not mention this. Instead, it creates a magic resistance of 50% in a 5' radius and can dispel magic in a 5' radius at the level of the paladin. I think that is a good topic for its own thread as well.

[garhkal]

It is a pretty powerful spell for 1st level. But as I'm reading over it again to re-familiarize myself with the nuances of it, I noticed a few things that I think we're all overlooking. First, the spell itself only applies to one person or creature, the one touched. So it doesn't protect the entire party, just the one character.

True, the 2e SPELL (First level one) is only YOU getting protected, but when you include the paladin from 1e, having it on as a 10ft bubble, it gets a lot more potent.

The +2 saving throw bonus and -2 thaco penalty for the evil attacker isn't all that big a deal. Especially when you consider that it's a 1st level spell, so low level characters gaining a +2 bonus to a saving throw is decent, but not that big a deal when it drops the character's saving throw from say 16 - 17 to 14 - 15. There's still 70% percent chance the saving throw is failed. Even at around 9th level (mid or name level), for most classes that still only drops the saving throw to around 11 or 12, so still a greater than 50% chance the saving throw fails. Helpful, but still a coin toss at best.

THIS i have never ever had issues with...

As far as protecting against mental control, keep in mind that the spell does not end the mental control. So I would argue that a person charmed by a vampire and told to attack the PC protected by the spell would still attack. The spell does not end the control, and nowhere does it state that a vampire's mental control (for example) requires constant concentration. So I would rule that a vampire's charmed minion would continue to attack the protected character as directed by the vampire, subject to the -2 thaco penalty. I agree with McDeath's interpretation on this.

There are those (mostly over on DF, but some guys i have played with), who DO think it ends the charm/domination, because in THEIR eyes, especially for paladins, WHAT is the point in the charm staying, IF the charmer can't ISSUE mental commands.. BUT there are those like me who wonder, IF HE CAN'T issue MENTAL commands, why then can't say that vamp, just shift over to issuing VERBAL commands!??

Concerning protecting against extra-planar creatures, two thoughts. First, how often do the PCs face off with a foe summoning extra-planar creatures? Second, it is a protection from evil spell, not a protection from neutral spell, so if the enemy summons earth/air/fire/water elementals, sylphs, aerial servants, sandlings, fire snakes, tempests, githzerai, maelephants, maruts, mediators, pers, slaad, xorn, etc., the spell has no effect since these extra-planar creatures are all neutral, not evil. Some of those (such as xorn) are listed in the spell description, but I contend those are errors because the spell is called protection from evil, not protection from extraplanar.

Finally, and this is the important line I think we all overlooked (I sure did!):

"This protection ends if the protected character makes a melee attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."

- PHB, pg. 202

ITs because it "HEDGES OUT summoned, Conjured or Enchanted foes.. Most extra-planar critters would fit that very easily, Neutral or not.

As for paladins and their 10' radius protection from evil effect, yes, it does give others the same protections as the spell, in a 10' radius. Personally, I have always thought this should have been a 10' diameter, not a 10' radius, as a 10' radius equates to a 20' diameter, which is a pretty damned large area. Note though that it provides only a -1 penalty to the evil creature's thaco (a -5% chance to hit) and does not prevent contact from extraplanar evil creatures as does the spell, nor does it state that it protects against mental control. It's essentially a weakened, watered down protection from evil spell.

Not for the 1e paladin.. IN the 1e DMG it does specify that the paladins PFE does block domination etc... EVEN MAGIC JAR!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

True, the 2e SPELL (First level one) is only YOU getting protected, but when you include the paladin from 1e, having it on as a 10ft bubble, it gets a lot more potent.

Well yes, I agree, the paladin issue is far worse than the spell effect.

There are those (mostly over on DF, but some guys i have played with), who DO think it ends the charm/domination, because in THEIR eyes, especially for paladins, WHAT is the point in the charm staying, IF the charmer can't ISSUE mental commands.. BUT there are those like me who wonder, IF HE CAN'T issue MENTAL commands, why then can't say that vamp, just shift over to issuing VERBAL commands!?

The problem is that the spell specifically states that the control is not dispelled. So unless the control requires ongoing, uninterrupted concentration, the control would remain. Nowhere does it say that vampires, for example, must maintain their control round-by-round. Same for charmed creatures. Once the command is issued, it remains unless dispelled. He sends his charmed minion to perform a task ,then goes about his business.

ITs because it "HEDGES OUT summoned, Conjured or Enchanted foes.. Most extra-planar critters would fit that very easily, Neutral or not.

Again, I contend that the write up is in error. An illogical error - perhaps they didn't think out the spell that well - because a spell that protects against evil should have no effect on neutral or good creatures. That simply makes no sense. The spell is specifically called "protection from evil", not "protection from extraplanar".

Not for the 1e paladin.. IN the 1e DMG it does specify that the paladins PFE does block domination etc... EVEN MAGIC JAR!

True, they were even tougher in 1E!

[garhkal]

Well, Basic, 1st AND 2e, must have made that mistake then, since ALL 3 editions, had PFE (or PFG) hedge out summoned, enchanted or conjured foes..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I'm not saying it's necessarily a mistake per se, only that I consider it a mistake in that it was an ill-thought-out description. If it also works on neutral beings, then why is it called protection from evil? It should have been named something else (protection from enemies?) because the name of the spell contradicts the function of the spell. Also, note that the entire "mummies draw power from the Positive Material Plane was a mistaken phrase, admitted as such by both Gygax and Kuntz, and yet that remained in print across all editions. Some mistakes never get corrected.