Let's discuss reincarnation

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

Was it mentzer D&D or somewhere else (perhaps polymorph) that mentioned the target could over time end up with the mind of the animal/monster? I must admit, I haven't read up on these in s long while.

Yeah, with polymorph, there's a risk over time that you adopt the mind of the animal or creature you were turned into.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Which has been my point. HOW CAN YOU have 'totally dead forever", IF YOU LET ANYTHING AND everything get around it, such as clone, wish, Alternate reality, reincarnation etc... THAT IS NOT totally dead.

Well a clone I can see because it's a clone. But if you allow wishes and other stuff to constantly get around it, you might as well not have the rule to begin with. I can see a rare exception, but not a slew of constant exceptions.

I think the MOST I have ever seen ONE CHARACTER, raised from the dead, was 3 times in one campaign.. His fourth death was via a disintegration eye beam, so that was it. Most other times, its maybe twice..

Yeah, I think 3 is probably the most I've ever seen. Usually it's once, maybe twice at most but there have been one or two times where someone actually did die a third time and come back. We're talking over almost a half century of gaming. No one has ever died and come back a 4th time even in any of my long term campaigns where the characters reached 16th to 18th level.

Which i disagree with. The limit is on YOU period.. Whether in your original body, or a new one. That's why it specifies INITIAL con score...

But again, that doesn't compute logically. If it's the spirit getting weaker with each resurrection, then there is no need for a CON reduction, nor does it make sense. I'm going back to my explanation of each death leaving the body less fit, less able to hold onto the soul of the person raised. Eventually the body wears out. That's the only way to explain the CON loss while everything else remains the same. With each death, the body decays some, weakens, loses its integrity so that it becomes increasingly hard to bring life to those tissues. But with a reincarnation, the body is fresh and new and full of vitality. I can't make a logical argument against that or for some mechanism that's making the soul weaker. About the only thing I can equate logically in making the soul weaker is level loss, and even that isn't entirely logical.

Would the regular roll be for raise dead, and a LOWER roll, say at 25% penalty, for the other one?

Yeah, going by what it says in DDG, a raise dead calls the soul back before it gets to the destination plane, whereas resurrection summons it out of the destination plane in the afterlife. The way I'm looking at it is this - the soul on the way to the afterlife may not know where it's going, or even if it does, the person may not quite be ready to go. Maybe he wants to finish some goal, some duty, say goodbye to his family, etc. But once he's on the plane of destination, to say: "Well, I'm here now, Zeus, but as nice as it is with all this free wine and fruit and eternal bliss, I think I'd rather go back to the Prime Material Plane.." that seems much less likely. Why would he want to leave that? And wouldn't Zeus be a little upset and unwilling to send him back? That kind of thing. So yeah, a lesser chance for resurrection than for raise dead.

Which is my stance too.. When i wrote out the reincarnate spell cards, i flat out made sure EMPHASISED that point, that 'reincarnate does NOT enable one to get around someone who suffered final death, from failing their ressie roll"...

Like I said, if someone asked me what I would say going by the rules as written, it seems to me to make sense to say no. But man, the potential fun coming from saying - "Ok, try reincarnation and see what you come back as" is just too irresistible to pass up. Imagine a paladin coming back as an orc and trying to spread his religion, or even convince someone who is sick to allow him to lay hands on to heal him. "I don't care how much you claim to represent Aphrodite, I'm not letting some ugly orc rub his hands on my body!". I'd ignore the rule just for the sheer fun potential it would bring. This is one example where the Rule of Cool trumps all interpretations of the rules, as far as I'm concerned.

That's why in 1e there's that special int check/save, for poly other, to see IF YOUR MIND does shift over and you fully become the animal/monster you got poly'ed into

We lost a paladin in Undermountain that way. Turned into a mouse, became a mouse mentally. He's gone!

[garhkal]

Well a clone I can see because it's a clone. But if you allow wishes and other stuff to constantly get around it, you might as well not have the rule to begin with. I can see a rare exception, but not a slew of constant exceptions.

That's why to ME, there shouldn't Be exceptions other than maybe a god's call..

Yeah, I think 3 is probably the most I've ever seen. Usually it's once, maybe twice at most but there have been one or two times where someone actually did die a third time and come back. We're talking over almost a half century of gaming. No one has ever died and come back a 4th time even in any of my long term campaigns where the characters reached 16th to 18th level.

I've heard (mostly from other sites) some who've had 4 or even 5 raises for one character.. BUT they also seem to treat it like a "Raiso-matic vending machine"...

Yeah, going by what it says in DDG, a raise dead calls the soul back before it gets to the destination plane, whereas resurrection summons it out of the destination plane in the afterlife. The way I'm looking at it is this - the soul on the way to the afterlife may not know where it's going, or even if it does, the person may not quite be ready to go. Maybe he wants to finish some goal, some duty, say goodbye to his family, etc. But once he's on the plane of destination, to say: "Well, I'm here now, Zeus, but as nice as it is with all this free wine and fruit and eternal bliss, I think I'd rather go back to the Prime Material Plane.." that seems much less likely. Why would he want to leave that? And wouldn't Zeus be a little upset and unwilling to send him back? That kind of thing. So yeah, a lesser chance for resurrection than for raise dead.

Exactly. WHO would really want to leave such a paradise?

Like I said, if someone asked me what I would say going by the rules as written, it seems to me to make sense to say no. But man, the potential fun coming from saying - "Ok, try reincarnation and see what you come back as" is just too irresistible to pass up. Imagine a paladin coming back as an orc and trying to spread his religion, or even convince someone who is sick to allow him to lay hands on to heal him. "I don't care how much you claim to represent Aphrodite, I'm not letting some ugly orc rub his hands on my body!". I'd ignore the rule just for the sheer fun potential it would bring. This is one example where the Rule of Cool trumps all interpretations of the rules, as far as I'm concerned.

BUT how many 'rule of cool' exceptions is enough, before it crosses over to the rule of stupid?

We lost a paladin in Undermountain that way. Turned into a mouse, became a mouse mentally. He's gone!

I've often had pcs who poly'ed enemies into things like fish out of water, or insects, especially if there were webs for them to get trapped in...

[McDeath]

Had some stupid DMs. Once I was turned into a smurf. I killed the entire village and became the new grand smurf magus with the time crystals and immortality stones (well age). Yeah, dude fucked up bad and i didn't play ball. So many criticals. I was like Rambo smurf. He had the mages guild meteor swarm/fireball the forest. I wasn't even in the area. How the hell can you the DM fuck up on player logistics and where i am at. I think he finally had a volcano explode in the area killing everything in a massive radius. I was done with them.

Next DM i recall pulled similar shit and turned me into a carebear. I picked up my paper, tore it up in his face punched him out of his chair and went home. Didn't game again for 5 years and that was a quick jaunt and haven't gamed since in .... i really don't recall. I just grew tired of stupidity and dumb comic crap.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

That's why to ME, there shouldn't Be exceptions other than maybe a god's call..

Yeah, I agree. Exceptions should be exceedingly rare. And going back to the clone spell, I never really liked it. It seems to sci-fi for AD&D. I don't know if it's the only spell that was never used in any campaign I've ever been part of (as either player or DM), but I can tell you for sure that it is one of the spells that I recall for a fact was never used.

The way I see it, if you fail a resurrection survival roll, the only way you come back is in an almost unique, one time in 20 years of gaming type situation where the god of that character basically says: "I know you look forward towards your reward but your time is not yet", because the god has some specific and important plan for that PC.

I've heard (mostly from other sites) some who've had 4 or even 5 raises for one character.. BUT they also seem to treat it like a "Raiso-matic vending machine"...

That to me seems so weird. Once or twice, yes, in a long running campaign. Say taking the character from 1st to 16th level or so. Possibly a third time if it's a high powered, highly magical game. Even then, it feels a tad much. But 4, 5, 6 times? I know players who have said they've been raised 10 times! I'm thinking: "What sort of fucking strange game are you playing?". Even if the PC started with a 16 or even 18 CON, he'd have the same chances of making 6 consecutive resurrections as I have of winning the lottery!

Exactly. WHO would really want to leave such a paradise?

Unless the person ended up in the Abyss or the Nine Hells, maybe!

BUT how many 'rule of cool' exceptions is enough, before it crosses over to the rule of stupid?

Oh, it would have to be a rare thing, I agree. Maybe a once in a campaign type event.

I've often had pcs who poly'ed enemies into things like fish out of water, or insects, especially if there were webs for them to get trapped in...

Polymorphing an enemy into a goldfish and simply walking away is truly a wonderfully cold hearted tactic. Even more so when an NPC uses it on a PC!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Any DM who turns a player character into a Smurf deserves an ass kicking. A DM who turns a PC into a Carebear needs to be castrated with a dull butter knife!

[garhkal]

Yeah, I agree. Exceptions should be exceedingly rare. And going back to the clone spell, I never really liked it. It seems to sci-fi for AD&D. I don't know if it's the only spell that was never used in any campaign I've ever been part of (as either player or DM), but I can tell you for sure that it is one of the spells that I recall for a fact was never used.

I've seen others discuss clone, but i can't remember anyone in any of my games, ever using it..

The way I see it, if you fail a resurrection survival roll, the only way you come back is in an almost unique, one time in 20 years of gaming type situation where the god of that character basically says: "I know you look forward towards your reward but your time is not yet", because the god has some specific and important plan for that PC.

I did that once before.. A new gamer to my group (old school player, but has been out of it for 13 years from what he said) DIED IN THE VERY FIRST battle.. So i had his dwarf Fighter priest, meet up with Moradin and he CHASTIZED the guy for dying so MISERABLY. GET BACK THERE and do it properly next time....

That to me seems so weird. Once or twice, yes, in a long running campaign. Say taking the character from 1st to 16th level or so. Possibly a third time if it's a high powered, highly magical game. Even then, it feels a tad much. But 4, 5, 6 times? I know players who have said they've been raised 10 times! I'm thinking: "What sort of fucking strange game are you playing?". Even if the PC started with a 16 or even 18 CON, he'd have the same chances of making 6 consecutive resurrections as I have of winning the lottery!

Yea. I could see a really loved guy, maybe getting done 4 times at the most.. BUT these days, SOME folks seem to be SO ATTACHED to their characters, they can't handle ANY bad things happening..

Polymorphing an enemy into a goldfish and simply walking away is truly a wonderfully cold hearted tactic. Even more so when an NPC uses it on a PC!

I had a high level elf mage/thief DIE To that tactic...

[McDeath]

10 plus times? Were they the inspiration for the Nodwick comic?