Can you eat Bugbear??

[garhkal]

After yesterday's game session, i was left wondering. Bugbears are known to some times eat humans/demi=humans, BUT does that mean then a human, could eat bugbear meat?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

A bit gruesome I'd say, but I don't see why not. Humans can eat damn near every animal species on earth (including other humans), so why not bugbears and gnolls and other species? I'd suggest that orcs and bugbears may taste foul or gamey. Or maybe not. Up to the DM. I would think though, that it would have to be a gritty and tough campaign where the party has to resort to eating bugbear flesh!

[garhkal]

One of the guys over on DF mentioned he says no, because he sees those humanoids as bein 'tainted', by evil... So eating them, COULD PASS on that taint.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

In general, I don't see a basis for that. It's not like their meat is cursed or something. I could see a paladin or good-aligned cleric refusing to "pollute" his body with the "taint of evil". That would make sense. For a good/holy character to eat the flesh of an evil creature could be considered reprehensible, consuming the flesh, the substance of evil. But for most characters who aren't paladins or good clerics, I don't see the problem.

Now eating undead...that's gross!

But wait...why are they even talking about having to eat bugbear flesh? I've seen parties run into some serious deprivations and fear for their survival, but I have to say no one I've ever played with has ever even brought up the idea of eating bugbears or orcs or whatever. It's kinda hard to picture a scenario where something like that would even become necessary.

[garhkal]

The guy in question is playing a ranger Pc, who he says "lives off the land, that means eating what i kill.. WE just killed some bugbears, so i was wanting to eat some, that way we can SAVE on some of the rations and other food stuff we bought with us.."

[Halaster Blackcloak]

To me that's just absurd. Any ranger (or druid!) worthy of the title would easily be able to live off the land without resorting to eating their enemies (bugbears, orcs, etc). I'm sure rabbit or squirrel or snake would taste far better than orc or bugbear! What sort of ranger could not find prey, nuts, berries, fish, etc to feed the party? Unless they're fighting bugbears in a cavern devoid of bugs, tiny animals, edible mushrooms, etc. or fighting in an arctic area where there is no food, I can't imagine this ever being a problem. I've never even heard something come up like this in all my years until today. Kinda hard to wrap my mind around a scenario where they'd need to do that.

[McDeath]

North Koreans are supposedly riddled with parasites and have foul ailments. Replace Korean with bugbear. I had the vision that most humanoids are pretty nastyin living conditions but I can't really say what the general consensus is. Maybe some are really clean and eat healthy according to their needs. Most movies and books depict them as damn disgusting. DMs call here. As a fellow player I'd look at Don the ranger differently. Who knows when he gets a case of the nibbles.

[garhkal]

To me that's just absurd. Any ranger (or druid!) worthy of the title would easily be able to live off the land without resorting to eating their enemies (bugbears, orcs, etc). I'm sure rabbit or squirrel or snake would taste far better than orc or bugbear! What sort of ranger could not find prey, nuts, berries, fish, etc to feed the party? Unless they're fighting bugbears in a cavern devoid of bugs, tiny animals, edible mushrooms, etc. or fighting in an arctic area where there is no food, I can't imagine this ever being a problem. I've never even heard something come up like this in all my years until today. Kinda hard to wrap my mind around a scenario where they'd need to do that.

The thing is where the group is, due t the # of monsters/undead, the ranger has found NO trace of normal animals, just a few carrion birds.. Nuts/berries, they brought a lot with them, but he's more concerned with meat/protine..

[McDeath]

It is up to the DM. If playing a more Ravenloft type adventure or apocalypse type where humanoids are nasty or even one of evil essence residing in evil humanoids then you can make up whatever rules (albeit Ravenloft would definitely toy with thrm to turn monstrous). Btb, I can't say it has ever come up besides things like sea life, birds, bugs, etc. Humanoids, rarely.

Are there any novels on this angle? You could shrug and say whatever. Will it affect their mental health? Will they struggle with some PTSD demons? You could have fun with this in a myriad of ways. Oh the devilish fun watching them slip into madness, getting more diseased in mind/body/soul, turning into ghouls or worse. Wing it I say and note it.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

North Koreans are supposedly riddled with parasites and have foul ailments. Replace Korean with bugbear. I had the vision that most humanoids are pretty nastyin living conditions but I can't really say what the general consensus is. Maybe some are really clean and eat healthy according to their needs. Most movies and books depict them as damn disgusting. DMs call here. As a fellow player I'd look at Don the ranger differently. Who knows when he gets a case of the nibbles.

Yeah, if it were me, I would rule that the dirty races like bugbears, orcs, goblins, etc. have parasites or diseases and there's a chance you get infected if you eat the flesh of those races.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

The thing is where the group is, due t the # of monsters/undead, the ranger has found NO trace of normal animals, just a few carrion birds.. Nuts/berries, they brought a lot with them, but he's more concerned with meat/protine..

I wonder - would it be a good ruling to say that the priest can use a purify food and drink spell to make the meat edible again? The dead animals they find, rotting, I mean. Would that count as "food"?

[garhkal]

Purify food and drink to ME won't make food that's NOT NORMALLY Edible, edible. IT just takes NORMALLY edible food that has rotted, or been poisoned or gone moldey, edible again..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I agree. What I'm wondering is, would bugbear meat (or any other raw meat) be considered "food", or does that apply only to prepared (i.e. cooked) food?

[garhkal]

That's why i decided on this for the hR to cover this situation..

Eating foes.
Though certain cultures Shun eating dead, both on a moral and religious perspective, it is not unheard of for humans (and Demi-humans) to eat either their Own dead, if in starvation mode, OR certain foes.
Most monsters, such as those that are the 'normally seen as animal type' foes (Manticores, Big cats, Wyverns, Owlbears), can at times be eaten, though some may need to not just be cooked properly (more so than regular cooking), but also may need Purify food and drink to be cast on it. 
Humanoids however, are generally NOT edible by humans/demi-humans.  Some say this is because the evil that 'corrupts them' also corrupts their meat, some say its just because they are flat out inedible.  This applies to Gnolls, Flinds, Orcs, Orogs, Giant kind (though Firbolg and Hill giants CAN be eaten, though knowledge of how to properly prepare their flesh, is VERY VERY rare), bugbears and hobgoblins.  Half orcs, by dint of being part human (or elven) CAN be eaten, though most good races, still shun it, morally.
Some humanoids, that are PC races, CAN get away with eating other humanoids, such as Lizard-men can eat most any man 0r smaller size humanoid due to how their stomachs are, but gnolls by dint of how THEIR stomachs are, can only eat other gnolls or flinds. 

Attempting TO eat, otherwise "Inedible" flesh, Even if a Purify food and drink are used, Prompts an immediate save vs poison, or suffer from food poisoning, that lasts for 1d3 days, giving a -1 to all rolls during that time (and the character will be incapable of getting proper bed rest, so will not heal naturally Or get the chance to regain spells).  While in this 'bad bowels' state, spell casting suffers a 20% chance of being mis-cast.  There is also a -4 penalty applied to attempts to use psionic powers.

Eating certain monsters, without knowing the proper method of cooking/preparing it, not only gives the above food poisoning issue, but can also cause longer lasting issues, such as loss of taste or even smell..  Trying this is a massive risk!"

There has also been an Edit to the Purify food and drink spell, to where it now has the following Note. [This will not make food out of Meat or Flora, that is NOT NORMALLY edible, such as the carcasses of most humanoids, Hell flies, or flora such as tree bark, grass and the like. This includes the flesh of Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Gnolls (though that is edible to other gnolls), and most giant kind.]

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Most monsters, such as those that are the 'normally seen as animal type' foes (Manticores, Big cats, Wyverns, Owlbears), can at times be eaten, though some may need to not just be cooked properly (more so than regular cooking), but also may need Purify food and drink to be cast on it.

Wait...wyverns are magical animals and manticores and owlbears are created animals, not normal animals, aren't they? Plus, wyverns are poisonous and its MM entry says its flesh has a very foul taste.

Humanoids however, are generally NOT edible by humans/demi-humans. Some say this is because the evil that 'corrupts them' also corrupts their meat, some say its just because they are flat out inedible. This applies to Gnolls, Flinds, Orcs, Orogs, Giant kind (though Firbolg and Hill giants CAN be eaten, though knowledge of how to properly prepare their flesh, is VERY VERY rare), bugbears and hobgoblins. Half orcs, by dint of being part human (or elven) CAN be eaten, though most good races, still shun it, morally.
Some humanoids, that are PC races, CAN get away with eating other humanoids, such as Lizard-men can eat most any man 0r smaller size humanoid due to how their stomachs are, but gnolls by dint of how THEIR stomachs are, can only eat other gnolls or flinds.

I'm not sure I'd agree with any of that. The "evil corrupts their meat" argument doesn't work, because if you're eating wyverns and manticores, they're evil too. Simply labeling certain humanoid races inedible, while other monsters (some of which are poisonous) are edible, to me, doesn't support internal logic. Especially when half-orcs are edible. We know from the real world that cannibalism of the same species (at least in humans) causes diseases such as kuru, so a human eating a half-orc should have less risk than a human eating a full human. Lizardmen are famous for eating everything, that I agree with, and they're also famous for eating their own. But not sure why gnolls would only be able to eat gnolls or flinds since they're carnivores and the MM states that they "eat anything warm blooded, favoring intelligent creatures over animals because they scream better".

Attempting TO eat, otherwise "Inedible" flesh, Even if a Purify food and drink are used, Prompts an immediate save vs poison, or suffer from food poisoning, that lasts for 1d3 days, giving a -1 to all rolls during that time (and the character will be incapable of getting proper bed rest, so will not heal naturally Or get the chance to regain spells). While in this 'bad bowels' state, spell casting suffers a 20% chance of being mis-cast. There is also a -4 penalty applied to attempts to use psionic powers.

Again, that part doesn't add up. If a purify food and drink spell...well...purifies the food it's cast on - even diseased, rotting food, then why wouldn't it work in this case? It sorta defeats the purpose of the spell, doesn't it?

Eating certain monsters, without knowing the proper method of cooking/preparing it, not only gives the above food poisoning issue, but can also cause longer lasting issues, such as loss of taste or even smell.. Trying this is a massive risk!"

Now that is something I like a lot! Oh, how much fun there is to be had with PCs trying to eat the flesh of strange monsters!

And if they ever ate demon flesh...well...I'd have to come up with something very, very sinister as a side effect!

There has also been an Edit to the Purify food and drink spell, to where it now has the following Note. [This will not make food out of Meat or Flora, that is NOT NORMALLY edible, such as the carcasses of most humanoids, Hell flies, or flora such as tree bark, grass and the like. This includes the flesh of Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Gnolls (though that is edible to other gnolls), and most giant kind.]

Yeah, I think the original spell should have spelled that out. It's sorta vague on whether that would work.

[garhkal]

Wait...wyverns are magical animals and manticores and owlbears are created animals, not normal animals, aren't they? Plus, wyverns are poisonous and its MM entry says its flesh has a very foul taste.

Owlbears and manticores don't have any magical attacks.. and NO to me hurling tail spikes, is not a magical attacks. JUST because they were 'created' b y magic centuries ago, now doesn't mean they can't qualify as natural', for being eaten... Though yea, wyverns are said to be 'foul tasting', NOTHING says that means you can't eat it, but it won't taste good..

I'm not sure I'd agree with any of that. The "evil corrupts their meat" argument doesn't work, because if you're eating wyverns and manticores, they're evil too. Simply labeling certain humanoid races inedible, while other monsters (some of which are poisonous) are edible, to me, doesn't support internal logic. Especially when half-orcs are edible. We know from the real world that cannibalism of the same species (at least in humans) causes diseases such as kuru, so a human eating a half-orc should have less risk than a human eating a full human. Lizardmen are famous for eating everything, that I agree with, and they're also famous for eating their own. But not sure why gnolls would only be able to eat gnolls or flinds since they're carnivores and the MM states that they "eat anything warm blooded, favoring intelligent creatures over animals because they scream better".

I did that, more so parties don't stop bothering having to worry about rations, and just kill monsters, TO EAT THEM...

Again, that part doesn't add up. If a purify food and drink spell...well...purifies the food it's cast on - even diseased, rotting food, then why wouldn't it work in this case? It sorta defeats the purpose of the spell, doesn't it?

Moldy food USED TO BE EDIBLE.. BUT now it's moldy it can't be eaten.. purifying it turns it BACK to being edible.

BUT CLOTH, or say Cannary was never edible to BEGIN WITH.. IMO Purify won't turn something that NEVER WAS edible in the first place, into something that now IS edible. IT just makes things that NORMALLY ARE FOOD, but are now fouled, back into being food..

Now that is something I like a lot! Oh, how much fun there is to be had with PCs trying to eat the flesh of strange monsters!

Imagine if they tried to eat ghoul!

Yeah, I think the original spell should have spelled that out. It's sorta vague on whether that would work.

Hence my inclusion of that note..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Owlbears and manticores don't have any magical attacks.. and NO to me hurling tail spikes, is not a magical attacks. JUST because they were 'created' b y magic centuries ago, now doesn't mean they can't qualify as natural', for being eaten... Though yea, wyverns are said to be 'foul tasting', NOTHING says that means you can't eat it, but it won't taste good..

True. What I meant was I only consider "normal" animals to be real world animals like horses and squirrels and dogs and cats and what not.

I did that, more so parties don't stop bothering having to worry about rations, and just kill monsters, TO EAT THEM...

Did that actually become a problem in your campaign? I'm asking seriously. Yikes! The PCs must be finding themselves in some truly barren areas to turn to sort-of cannibalism! I have to say I've never come across that. Yet. Hmm. If the current game that's been on hold keeps going, and they're lost in the caverns, I wonder if this time will be the time it does.

Moldy food USED TO BE EDIBLE.. BUT now it's moldy it can't be eaten.. purifying it turns it BACK to being edible.

BUT CLOTH, or say Cannary was never edible to BEGIN WITH.. IMO Purify won't turn something that NEVER WAS edible in the first place, into something that now IS edible. IT just makes things that NORMALLY ARE FOOD, but are now fouled, back into being food..

I agree. But what I mean is, if you can eat it, it's edible. So bugbear flesh is edible, though cloth or say paper or wood isn't. So shouldn't purify food and drink purify the flesh of the edible monsters?

Imagine if they tried to eat ghoul!

Imagine them trying to gag it down!

Hence my inclusion of that note..

Yeah, that really is needed to clarify it. I'm surprised Gygax never clarified a lot of those spells. Some were wo vaguely or confusingly written or contradictory, the DM had to do a lot of mental gymnastics.

[garhkal]

True. What I meant was I only consider "normal" animals to be real world animals like horses and squirrels and dogs and cats and what not.

Some not so normal monsters, are 'normal/ for an adnd like realm (griffens, hypogriffs).

Did that actually become a problem in your campaign? I'm asking seriously. Yikes! The PCs must be finding themselves in some truly barren areas to turn to sort-of cannibalism! I have to say I've never come across that. Yet. Hmm. If the current game that's been on hold keeps going, and they're lost in the caverns, I wonder if this time will be the time it does.

Not yet.. BUT the player does seem loath to use up ALL THe food/ration stuff he BOUGHT to the island.... So that's why he seems to want to get into eating what they kill, to stretch that stuff out longer..

I agree. But what I mean is, if you can eat it, it's edible. So bugbear flesh is edible, though cloth or say paper or wood isn't. So shouldn't purify food and drink purify the flesh of the edible monsters?

Hence why i made this rule, to CLARIFY WHAT monsters/humanoids ARE edible...

Yeah, that really is needed to clarify it. I'm surprised Gygax never clarified a lot of those spells. Some were wo vaguely or confusingly written or contradictory, the DM had to do a lot of mental gymnastics.

That's why a lot of spells, i edited and printed out in 3x5 index cards, to CLARIFY lots of stuff... OR edit it for my realm!