Magical tomes/books etc..

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garhkal
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Magical tomes/books etc..

Post by garhkal »

So, with all the recent chatter on some of these books, i decided to codify HOW I handle it, for IF/when they eventually show up in any of my games.. This is stuff i have pulled from prior threads on this, and calls i recently decided to make..

Let me know what you all think..
All magical Books, librams, tomes and manuals, except for four specific ones, appear to be 'Normal works of arcane lore', but each is indistinguishable from others of their type,by purely visual inspections.. Spells such as Identify and other low-level divinations will also not work to tell you what those books are, but using Wish, Commune or Contact other plane will.

Contact other plane and Commune, when cast on one of these pieces of written magic, can tell a mage (or priest) which class will BENEFIT mostly from said work, but it won't tell you what class is penalized (IE a manual of pussiant skill at arms, will be read as "Benefits fighters", but a COP or Commune won't tell you it "harms mages who read it".
This who it helps out beneficially, even works on telling you 'what alignment' is best suited for it, specifically for those 3 mage or 3 priest books that Are aligned.

Using a wish, will tell you exactly what that book is and what it does. This is a VERY DIRECT change from how the DMG specifies you normally would need 2 wishes to do that!

The four books that are 'specifically' not included in this, are
Manual of golems
Tome of the Familiar (A new item i recently made based off a thread we recently had),
Librams of Training (another new item of mine)
and Book of infinite spells.

If a book hits someone alignment wise, that character receives a Geas, to conceal and guard said book, TILL such a time as they have done their atoning, OR met certain requirements, such as 'confirmed their new alignment to a person of evil!'

If a book/libram etc, gives one "Sufficient XP to place you mid point in the next level", the magical work of the book, FILLS IN the need for a trainer, has NO level training costs etc, and even fills in the 'hole' for if/when someone gains a new weapon or non-weapon slot. HOWEVER IT won't grant a new spell for mages!

For magical writings that penalize one type of character, while benefiting another, WHETHER a character is both helped/hurt depends on what that character is.

If a multi-classed PC, where One class would be benefited, while the Other would be hindered, you FIRST SUFFER the penalties of said book. THEN IF you can continue reading, you then may enjoy the benefit of that book. Such as if a half elf mage/priest of neutral good read a Book of Exalted deeds, he'd first lose XP from his mage side, then after rest, he'd be able to keep reading, and his priest side would go up one level, and one point of wisdom. BUT if said mage/priest, instead read a Libram of silver magic, his pries side, would if he failed his save v going insane, be unable to Continue reading it, for helping his mage side up.

IF one class in the multi-class combo, is helped, while the other is NOT affected, such as a fighter/thief who reads a manual of pussiant skill at arms, HE just gets the benefit, as there's no penalties to worry about.

IF one class would be hindered, while the other class is not affected, they just Suffer the penalties.!

For dual class characters, this mostly depends on which class is benefited, vs which is hindered, AND 'has his new class surpassed his old class or not'.
- If his Old class would benefit, and his new class would be penalized, it depends on “Has his new class surpassed his old in level yet”.

<IF NO, then he just gains the full benefits of it, while NOT suffering any penalties, OTHER than loss of XP, for using an out of class function.
<IF his new class HAS surpassed the old, Then he only get’s the negative effects of reading the work, he does
NOT gain any benefits!

- If the work would Benefit his new class, but would also Penalize his old class, go by the following;
<IF his new class has NOT YET surpassed his old one, he FIRST suffers any penalties. Then if he can continue reading it, he Then can enjoy the benefits.
<IF his new class has surpassed his old, HE Just gains the benefit of the work. He does not suffer any negatives.

It's not who you kill, but how they die!
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Halaster Blackcloak
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Re: Magical tomes/books etc..

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
All magical Books, librams, tomes and manuals, except for four specific ones, appear to be 'Normal works of arcane lore', but each is indistinguishable from others of their type,by purely visual inspections.. Spells such as Identify and other low-level divinations will also not work to tell you what those books are, but using Wish, Commune or Contact other plane will.
I like that they appear as "normal works of arcane lore", because in that case it's not a dead giveaway. The part that mentions "indistinguishable" though - I've always taken that to mean they just look like a standard magic book, nothing about them stands out as particularly special, not that they all look the same, as some DMs I know have ruled. Where's the fun and excitement if every magical time looks identical? I think that a wish spell should tell you everything about the book, except perhaps if it's an artifact or relic, in which case it may not tell you everything or perhaps even nothing. Commune, yes, that should work, as the priest is contacting his god or minions. He does need to be precise and careful with his questions though, since most answers are "yes or no". With contact other plane, it gets tricky. Wizards don't deal with gods. Thru contact other plane, in most cases he'll have to contact an outer plane, not an inner (elemental) plane. But what/whom does he contact? Demons and devils will lie, for certain. Alignment becomes an issue. A neutral wizard likely won't be answered by a god of good alignment, nor his minions. Evil ones may purposely give wrong answers. And insanity is always a huge risk.
Contact other plane and Commune, when cast on one of these pieces of written magic, can tell a mage (or priest) which class will BENEFIT mostly from said work, but it won't tell you what class is penalized (IE a manual of pussiant skill at arms, will be read as "Benefits fighters", but a COP or Commune won't tell you it "harms mages who read it". This who it helps out beneficially, even works on telling you 'what alignment' is best suited for it, specifically for those 3 mage or 3 priest books that Are aligned.
Not sure how I'd handle that part. It's not like people identify themselves as neutral good or lawful evil. In-game, it's pretty much you're a good guy, a bad guy or a wishy washy guy. The dual-axis alignments are meta-game, so I don't see a paladin asking "Can a lawful good person read this book safely?" because Lawful Good is an alignment (metagame) term, not language people use, if that makes sense.
Using a wish, will tell you exactly what that book is and what it does. This is a VERY DIRECT change from how the DMG specifies you normally would need 2 wishes to do that!
I absolutely agree! It's ridiculous to think a full wish would not reveal information about a book! My argument is this - if you're handing out that many powerful magical tomes and the PCs have wishes to burn, you're doing something wrong. No need for 2 wishes for this sort of thing.
The four books that are 'specifically' not included in this, are
Manual of golems
Tome of the Familiar (A new item i recently made based off a thread we recently had),
Librams of Training (another new item of mine)
and Book of infinite spells.
Do you mean you make those look obviously different?
If a book hits someone alignment wise, that character receives a Geas, to conceal and guard said book, TILL such a time as they have done their atoning, OR met certain requirements, such as 'confirmed their new alignment to a person of evil!'
I like that twist! I'm surprised no one's thought of it until you did!
If a book/libram etc, gives one "Sufficient XP to place you mid point in the next level", the magical work of the book, FILLS IN the need for a trainer, has NO level training costs etc, and even fills in the 'hole' for if/when someone gains a new weapon or non-weapon slot. HOWEVER IT won't grant a new spell for mages!
Yes, I agree totally. But for manuals that increase INT, STR, etc, I still require the month of exercises to be performed before the benefits are reaped. I kinda like that.
For magical writings that penalize one type of character, while benefiting another, WHETHER a character is both helped/hurt depends on what that character is.
Do you mean that only for dual/multi-classed characters? If it's meant for single class characters, you lost me there.
If a multi-classed PC, where One class would be benefited, while the Other would be hindered, you FIRST SUFFER the penalties of said book. THEN IF you can continue reading, you then may enjoy the benefit of that book. Such as if a half elf mage/priest of neutral good read a Book of Exalted deeds, he'd first lose XP from his mage side, then after rest, he'd be able to keep reading, and his priest side would go up one level, and one point of wisdom. BUT if said mage/priest, instead read a Libram of silver magic, his pries side, would if he failed his save v going insane, be unable to Continue reading it, for helping his mage side up.

IF one class in the multi-class combo, is helped, while the other is NOT affected, such as a fighter/thief who reads a manual of pussiant skill at arms, HE just gets the benefit, as there's no penalties to worry about.

IF one class would be hindered, while the other class is not affected, they just Suffer the penalties.!

For dual class characters, this mostly depends on which class is benefited, vs which is hindered, AND 'has his new class surpassed his old class or not'.
- If his Old class would benefit, and his new class would be penalized, it depends on “Has his new class surpassed his old in level yet”.

<IF NO, then he just gains the full benefits of it, while NOT suffering any penalties, OTHER than loss of XP, for using an out of class function.
<IF his new class HAS surpassed the old, Then he only get’s the negative effects of reading the work, he does
NOT gain any benefits!

- If the work would Benefit his new class, but would also Penalize his old class, go by the following;
<IF his new class has NOT YET surpassed his old one, he FIRST suffers any penalties. Then if he can continue reading it, he Then can enjoy the benefits.
<IF his new class has surpassed his old, HE Just gains the benefit of the work. He does not suffer any negatives.
I think all that makes total sense. I like it!
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garhkal
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Re: Magical tomes/books etc..

Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pmI like that they appear as "normal works of arcane lore", because in that case it's not a dead giveaway. The part that mentions "indistinguishable" though - I've always taken that to mean they just look like a standard magic book, nothing about them stands out as particularly special, not that they all look the same, as some DMs I know have ruled. Where's the fun and excitement if every magical time looks identical?
I think the reasoning they had, was if they 'appear different', just by visual scanning, then that should make it EASY to identify the work. If they all "appear the same", then it's harder to distinguish them apart from one another, as you have to use high level magics...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pmI think that a wish spell should tell you everything about the book, except perhaps if it's an artifact or relic, in which case it may not tell you everything or perhaps even nothing. Commune, yes, that should work, as the priest is contacting his god or minions. He does need to be precise and careful with his questions though, since most answers are "yes or no". With contact other plane, it gets tricky. Wizards don't deal with gods. Thru contact other plane, in most cases he'll have to contact an outer plane, not an inner (elemental) plane. But what/whom does he contact? Demons and devils will lie, for certain. Alignment becomes an issue. A neutral wizard likely won't be answered by a god of good alignment, nor his minions. Evil ones may purposely give wrong answers. And insanity is always a huge risk.
Hence my editing of how the DMG had things, changing it up to where only ONE wish is needed, not two as is RAW..
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm Not sure how I'd handle that part. It's not like people identify themselves as neutral good or lawful evil. In-game, it's pretty much you're a good guy, a bad guy or a wishy washy guy. The dual-axis alignments are meta-game, so I don't see a paladin asking "Can a lawful good person read this book safely?" because Lawful Good is an alignment (metagame) term, not language people use, if that makes sense.
Only the mage and priest ones have alignments, and THEY CERTAINLY know in character, what alignments are, due to all the Alignmen detecting/affecting magics, such as know alignment, protection from good etc...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm I absolutely agree! It's ridiculous to think a full wish would not reveal information about a book! My argument is this - if you're handing out that many powerful magical tomes and the PCs have wishes to burn, you're doing something wrong. No need for 2 wishes for this sort of thing.
Hence my changing it to just ONE wish.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm Do you mean you make those look obviously different?
That, and that a normal IDENTIFY will tell you what that book is...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm I like that twist! I'm surprised no one's thought of it until you did!
Well, it does kind of make sense, since the two priestly works, DO mention they hit thieves alignments, if they read them, forcing them to change to a priest if their wisdom is high enough, same for the 'grey mage' book.. BUT they never gave (IMO) Concrete info for HOW that works.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm Yes, I agree totally. But for manuals that increase INT, STR, etc, I still require the month of exercises to be performed before the benefits are reaped. I kinda like that.
WELL, every stat boosting manual, BTB< DOES ALREADY state you need to perform "the works contained in" for a month, before the point is given... SO That part is already RAW.. I just clarified how it works for the LEVEL Boosting ones for each class, as most just state "This gives sufficient XP to place one mid way in the next level". NOT EXPRESSLY SAYING you level up, OR if you need to still train up to get that level etc...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm Do you mean that only for dual/multi-classed characters? If it's meant for single class characters, you lost me there.
Yes. If one's single class, it is already easy to see "IF this penalizes me, helps me, or does nothing"..
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:54 pm I think all that makes total sense. I like it!
Thanks.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
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