Powergamers

[Varl]

Let's start a discussion on the Oh Joy! feeling of having a powergamer in your game. I'll start.

We just added a new player to our group, an acquaintence of a good friend that shares the same church. Anyway, the friend asked if he could come play, and I thought, sure! I got the room to add one more player.

Meh. I'm starting to regret that decision. He's a good guy, and has a good heart I can tell, but he really likes to powergame. He's playing a dwarf tank that, well just to put this character of his into perspective, has all 17s and 18s as stats with one 15 as his lowest stat. It wasn't rolled in front of the group, which I freely admit I screwed up, but I tend to trust my players (even new ones) to not cheat. In the 28 years I've DM'd, I've yet to see anyone hit the probability tables like his dwarf supposedly did. The best character I've ever seen legitimately rolled for was one with two 18s and one 17, and that's it. He's got 6 of the 8 stats we use over 17. It's sad.

We talked about it after the game, and he's sounds willing to work with me to make realistic characters, but he was also caught cheating by my best friend while the game was going on. He apparently healed more damage than I told him he had been healed for, and that my friends, is much more serious. I brook no cheating whatsoever. I catch wind of it that you've doctored rolls or numbers, you're gone.

And it's on that criteria that's making me wonder if I should give this guy another chance, because characters can be moderated to every campaign's style, but cheating players cannot be trusted.

Let me give you an example of what transpired on Saturday, and you let me know what you think of this action (which, btw, has nothing to do with his cheating; this is more of a "use and abuse the rules to the absolute best you can, so you're character gains unbelievable bonuses):

They're fighting kobolds in a dungeon environment. They sleep the majority of them, force the kobold shaman to flee, and quickly dispatch the sleeping kobolds. A few rounds pass, and they encounter a special fire-breathing creature of the adventure that is quite powerful for their levels, but it was put in there as a test of their mettle. Anyway, what does the dwarf player do? He runs back and grabs two dead kobolds and uses them as a body shield, against the flames of the beast, granting him an AC bonus, which made his AC -7 at 1st level. At that point, I started to laugh and cry at the same time.

Is this really a rule in AD&D, cause if it is, I've never seen it. Can anyone enlighten me on it? But now you're starting to see the problem I have with this player and his characters. They so overshadow everyone else in the group that it makes it tough to run challenging scenarios for everyone, because his characters are pulping everything before they even get started, or worse, I'm forced to up every creature in the game to match his character's obsurdities, which kills everyone else that tries to help. It's truly a no-win situation, and this is the guy's first game!

As I told my long time friends on a provate board, I'm considering giving him a second chance (and after I toss his dwarf into my shredder). He's definitely going to be rolling characters up in front of me from now on if he gets another chance. See, the problem is, he wants this particular character to be a tank, but if I nerf the character down to a level where I and the other players feel more comfortable, his character will lose the supposed given racial, class, and specialization bonuses the game grants people to have, and I can kinda see his point. The btb game is just as much to blame for creating powergamers as the powergamers are, and thats' the frustrating part of it all.

How does one grant specialization to fighters, class bonuses from style specializations, and racial bonuses and still have a character that can be a "tank" by all intents of the word, but not so vastly overshadow everyone and everything else in the game that it makes the experience suck. It just sucks, and I can freely say I HATE that part of AD&D. Absolutely hate it.

Help and advice would be welcome. Thank you.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Powergamers. How I love to torture them (the players, not the characters!).

He's playing a dwarf tank that, well just to put this character of his into perspective, has all 17s and 18s as stats with one 15 as his lowest stat. It wasn't rolled in front of the group, which I freely admit I screwed up, but I tend to trust my players (even new ones) to not cheat. In the 28 years I've DM'd, I've yet to see anyone hit the probability tables like his dwarf supposedly did. The best character I've ever seen legitimately rolled for was one with two 18s and one 17, and that's it. He's got 6 of the 8 stats we use over 17. It's sad.

No way in hell. The Virgin Mary herself could tell me she rolled that sort of character and I'd not believe it. The highest overall scores I've ever seen legitimately rolled before my eyes in my entire gaming life (about 30 years now) is the druid in our decade-long game:

STR 16
DEX 17
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 16

No way is someone rolling mainly 17s and 18s. Nothing I've seen has ever come close to the druid's mainly 16's, with two scores above 16.

And you have two more stats above the regular six, and those are also 18s? (Which ones? Perception was a popular one.) And given that he has that many uber-high scores out of a whopping 8 stats instead of a mere 6 stats...no way in hell. You'd have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting hit by lightning on the same day.

I brook no cheating whatsoever. I catch wind of it that you've doctored rolls or numbers, you're gone.

I hate cheaters. I just get rid of them. It seems to me that cheaters always cheat, they don't seem to ever reform.

And it's on that criteria that's making me wonder if I should give this guy another chance, because characters can be moderated to every campaign's style, but cheating players cannot be trusted.

I wouldn't. I've never seen a reformed cheater. You can never trust them. The only other option is to make him roll all his rolls out in the open under very strict directions ("Ok, now roll your system shock roll. 98%. Too bad!"). You'd also have to keep track of his hit points and healing, etc. For me, that's just too much work.

Anyway, what does the dwarf player do? He runs back and grabs two dead kobolds and uses them as a body shield, against the flames of the beast, granting him an AC bonus, which made his AC -7 at 1st level. At that point, I started to laugh and cry at the same time.

Huh? WTF?

Ok, he's a dwarf who stands 4' to 4.5' tall. He's saying he grabbed two kobolds, each of which stand 3' tall? That's like me grabbing two guys who are 5' tall and carrying them. Yeah, right. Even with 18 STR, he can only carry 110 lbs without being encumbered. I have no idea what a kobold weighs, but since they're the same size as gnomes, the book says gnomes weigh 72 lbs + 5d4 lbs. That gives us an average of 82 lbs for a gnome that stands 3' tall. A kobold would be in the same range. So that leaves 28 lbs for all his weapons and equipment. He's encumbered.

I also don't see how he's going to lift 82 lbs of dead weight with each arm. And if he does, he has no way to also wield a weapon while doing so. No way in hell is a dwarf with those tiny arms who stands just 4' tall going to be able to hoist two 3' tall, 82lb kobolds in each arm and be able to shield himself. The physics just don't work. Again, I'd tell the player (assuming he's 6' tall) to try lifting just one 5' tall fellow player, much less two of them!

How'd he get a -7 AC? Those kobolds aren't going to give him even as much cover as a good-sized shield, so I'd give him at most a +1 to his AC due to the kobolds. The flames will get past the areas between the kobolds' arms, legs, shoulders, etc. It's not like he flattened them out into a shield that covers everything. They're all swaying and jiggling around, etc.

Is this really a rule in AD&D, cause if it is, I've never seen it. Can anyone enlighten me on it?

You mean using kobolds as shields? If so, there is no rule. Not sure which part you mean. What did he do when he reached the fire breathing monster? He couldn't have had a weapon ready.

But now you're starting to see the problem I have with this player and his characters. They so overshadow everyone else in the group that it makes it tough to run challenging scenarios for everyone, because his characters are pulping everything before they even get started, or worse, I'm forced to up every creature in the game to match his character's obsurdities, which kills everyone else that tries to help. It's truly a no-win situation, and this is the guy's first game!

You only have two choices. Kill the character or kill the player.

Seriously, either he needs to roll up a real character or he needs to find another campaign. Unless and until he takes a lie detector test and passes it, I don't believe he rolled those scores legitimately.

See, the problem is, he wants this particular character to be a tank, but if I nerf the character down to a level where I and the other players feel more comfortable, his character will lose the supposed given racial, class, and specialization bonuses the game grants people to have, and I can kinda see his point. The btb game is just as much to blame for creating powergamers as the powergamers are, and thats' the frustrating part of it all.

I'm not sure I see the problem with btb rules allowing powergaming. First, if he rolls a legitimate character, he's not going to have all 18's. He'll have perhaps an 18 and a 17 and the rest in the average range. I've never liked weapon specialization, but remember it costs slots, and the penalty for using a non-specialized weapon is also considered. A first level fighter can specialize in only two weapons, and another every 6 levels (it takes two slots to specialize, remember!). He won't get to specialize in a 3rd weapon until 7th level. Don't let him find any magic weapons that he has specialization with. He'll love that -2 penalty to his rolls!

How does one grant specialization to fighters, class bonuses from style specializations, and racial bonuses and still have a character that can be a "tank" by all intents of the word, but not so vastly overshadow everyone and everything else in the game that it makes the experience suck.

I'm not sure what you mean by "class bonuses from style specialization". Is that some sort of kit thing? I only recall weapon specialization for fighters. No style stuff.

Racial bonuses? I've skewed the shit out of those. They're totally absurd. First, why would a super-poor CON score like 4-6 give a dwarf a bonus against poison/magic? It makes no sense. A bonus for having a bad score? A score of 10 is average. I changed it so that a CON 11-13 gives a +1, a CON 14-17 gives a +2, and a CON 18-19 gives a +3. It makes much more sense than what's in the book and it's much less unbalancing.

I've also never liked how giant-class creatures get a +4 thaco penalty against dwarves. Why not also a penalty for fighting small creatures like kobolds, goblins, pixies, etc?

Aside from that, I'm not seeing any really unbalancing racial stuff.

[Varl]

No way in hell. The Virgin Mary herself could tell me she rolled that sort of character and I'd not believe it. The highest overall scores I've ever seen legitimately rolled before my eyes in my entire gaming life (about 30 years now) is the druid in our decade-long game:

STR 16
DEX 17
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 16

No way is someone rolling mainly 17s and 18s. Nothing I've seen has ever come close to the druid's mainly 16's, with two scores above 16.

I know. Thankfully, we had a long chat on the phone last night, and he's agreed to reroll all of this stats in front of us next time we game. I just pray for low rolls just to see how he reacts.

And you have two more stats above the regular six, and those are also 18s? (Which ones? Perception was a popular one.)

Perception and Comeliness.

And given that he has that many uber-high scores out of a whopping 8 stats instead of a mere 6 stats...no way in hell. You'd have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting hit by lightning on the same day.

I know, and I flat out told him it's a virtual statistical impossibility to have every score be that high, but he claims he did it. That's why I'm having him reroll. I just can't believe anyone could be that lucky, and besides, if he was truly that lucky, he should have saved them for game day and amazed us all.

I hate cheaters. I just get rid of them. It seems to me that cheaters always cheat, they don't seem to ever reform.

Well, that's why he only gets one more chance. The whole shame on me, shame on you deal.

I wouldn't. I've never seen a reformed cheater. You can never trust them. The only other option is to make him roll all his rolls out in the open under very strict directions ("Ok, now roll your system shock roll. 98%. Too bad!"). You'd also have to keep track of his hit points and healing, etc. For me, that's just too much work.

I know. It feels like babysitting. I had a player like this a while back too, and he did the same thing. He wrote numbers down that he wanted, not what he actually received. You know, why do people like that even bother to play at all? They're not contributing to a better game by cheating like that, even if they think they are. All they're doing is insuring their characters survive, which to me is a bit like sniping an extra $500 bill in Monopoly when everyone else's back is turned. Pretty soon, everyone wonders why the money's all gone. In D&D, pretty soon everyone wonders why they're all dead and he's in shining, glistening health.

How'd he get a -7 AC? Those kobolds aren't going to give him even as much cover as a good-sized shield, so I'd give him at most a +1 to his AC due to the kobolds. The flames will get past the areas between the kobolds' arms, legs, shoulders, etc. It's not like he flattened them out into a shield that covers everything. They're all swaying and jiggling around, etc.

This part was my fault too, and we talked about it. He caught me in one of those moments. I was thinking +1 to AC too, and that's what it'll be from now on should he try it again.

You mean using kobolds as shields? If so, there is no rule. Not sure which part you mean. What did he do when he reached the fire breathing monster? He couldn't have had a weapon ready.

He didn't. He couldn't have weapons ready while holding the kobolds. I just thought the tactic was both inventive and abusive, and I didn't quite know how to rule at the time. Mea culpa.

I'm not sure I see the problem with btb rules allowing powergaming.

It's actually a fairly easy thing to accomplish if you know how to takes the rules from multiple supplements and combine their benefits into one character. That's the part of AD&D I don't think they bothered to double check. They simply added the dwarven bonuses to the PHB, follow up with style specializations in the Fighters Handbook, whatever else from the Dwarven Handbook, and you get the picture. If a DM isn't very careful, things can very quickly escalate. The fact that they never seemed to account for all the bonuses across all the supplements leads exactly to this kind of abuse, and forces DMs to make house rules to compensate.

Racial bonuses? I've skewed the shit out of those. They're totally absurd. First, why would a super-poor CON score like 4-6 give a dwarf a bonus against poison/magic? It makes no sense. A bonus for having a bad score? A score of 10 is average. I changed it so that a CON 11-13 gives a +1, a CON 14-17 gives a +2, and a CON 18-19 gives a +3. It makes much more sense than what's in the book and it's much less unbalancing.

Yeah, these are the rules changes DMs are forced into making that I'm talking about.

I've also never liked how giant-class creatures get a +4 thaco penalty against dwarves. Why not also a penalty for fighting small creatures like kobolds, goblins, pixies, etc?

True enough.

Aside from that, I'm not seeing any really unbalancing racial stuff.

Saving throw mods for race are other badly often-abused rules. They can take a normal 1st level saving throw near 20 and reduce it down to near 10 by the time all the point variables from multiple sources are added in. It's really very unbalanced. I could see giving some bonus points to races, but not on the level the rules give. Not anymore. I tend to err on the side of starting small and working towards power, not the reverse, which I think some of the official PHB mods allow.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Varl wrote:

It's actually a fairly easy thing to accomplish if you know how to takes the rules from multiple supplements and combine their benefits into one character. That's the part of AD&D I don't think they bothered to double check. They simply added the dwarven bonuses to the PHB, follow up with style specializations in the Fighters Handbook, whatever else from the Dwarven Handbook, and you get the picture. If a DM isn't very careful, things can very quickly escalate. The fact that they never seemed to account for all the bonuses across all the supplements leads exactly to this kind of abuse, and forces DMs to make house rules to compensate.

A perfect reason why I don't use all the kit stuff and the accessory material (Fighter Handbook, etc). It's just too much power escalation, and as you said, with no consideration for integrating it into the core rules with balance in mind.

I've never seen a kit I either liked or found useful anyway.

Saving throw mods for race are other badly often-abused rules. They can take a normal 1st level saving throw near 20 and reduce it down to near 10 by the time all the point variables from multiple sources are added in. It's really very unbalanced. I could see giving some bonus points to races, but not on the level the rules give. Not anymore.

Yeah, the saving throws can get out of hand quite quickly!

But I can see the racial bonuses, which would help balance the fact that Gygax limited demihumans to mainly 4th, 5th, and 6th level as PCs. In fact, 11th level is the highest demihumans can get (elven magic user and half-elven assassin). So most of them are stuck in single digit levels. They gotta have something to balance the fact that their human team-mates are all in double-digit territory (14th, 15th, 18th level, etc). Of course, I tone them down because it makes more sense that way and I never use demihuman level limits.

Thaco gets out of hand quickly too! It's why I hate weapon specialization and swords with pluses to hit. I generally don't give out weapons with pluses to hit, mainly just pluses to damage or with special powers. If a weapon is intended for a non-fighter type, then I may add the bonus to hit.

Look at a 1st level fighter with weapon specialization and an 18/51 STR (going with the center of the exceptional STR assuming he has an 18 to start). He gets a +2 to hit right off the bat. He gets another +1 to hit with his preferred weapon. And he gets a +1 for a cheap magic sword. His thaco is now 16 instead of 20. Which means that this 1st level fighter hits as easily as a generic 5th level fighter, a 9th level cleric or thief, or a 13th level wizard. He also gets + 6 on damage. All this at first level!

Gods forbid he hits 6th level and gains a +2 or +3 sword, then decides to use his slots to double-specialize!

He'd now have a total thaco bonus of 6 or 7, meaning his thaco would be either 8 or 9. At 6th level! What can't he hit?

His plus damage would be a whopping +9 or +10. Yikes!

Another reason why I don't use specialization. It seems to me that it was nothing more than an attempt (when 2E came along) to make fighters "tougher" by giving them ridiculous damage bonuses.

I tend to err on the side of starting small and working towards power, not the reverse, which I think some of the official PHB mods allow.

Amen! What fun is it if, by 5th or 6th level, you can hit everything and never fail a saving throw?

[Mira]

It's actually a fairly easy thing to accomplish if you know how to takes the rules from multiple supplements and combine their benefits into one character.

Now I see where the problem is. Many of the supplements aren't well designed to begin with, and they certainly weren't designed to work with the other ones. Still, if you keep in mind that all supplements are OPTIONAL, it's usually fairly easy to keep out the rules that don't work. I generally found it works better to start with a minimal rule set and just add in things as people want it. It's much easier to manage than dealing with a massive rule set and paring it down.

Mira (To err is human; to blame it on the other party is politics)

[Mira]

Another reason why I don't use specialization. It seems to me that it was nothing more than an attempt (when 2E came along) to make fighters "tougher" by giving them ridiculous damage bonuses.

The 1E Unearthed Arcana was worse actually, 2E toned it down.

I do have to say that weapon specialization did change the game dramaticly, altering the balance of all the 1E modules considerably. I don't know that it was really a bad thing other than dealing with the older material in relation to it though. With the freedom I had given to casters with the use of spell slots rather than pre-memorized spells, casters were stronger, so having stronger fighters wasn't something I was against. Rogues were really the only ones that lost out since there really wasn't much I was able to do to improve them (other than enchanted lockpicks). That didn't stop them from being popular though.

Mira (If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning)

[Mira]

I have actually seen rolls that good before, rolled up in front of the group. I've also been challenged in the past for having decent rolls and been able to reproduce them. So I wouldn't assume cheating based on the stats.

The problem about 'fudging' results during play is a bigger issue, other people don't like it and if it's allowed to go on, it will cause problems. I have had things go to extremes when a player did that, looking back I probably should have intervened up front and kicked the guy out rather than let the rest of the group destroy his character and get him really pissed off. (though it did cause him to leave the group which was the desired result)

Mira (To err is human, to blame it on someone else is more human)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Mira wrote:

The 1E Unearthed Arcana was worse actually, 2E toned it down.

Yeah, there were a lot of things I didn't like about UA, although some of it was good.

I do have to say that weapon specialization did change the game dramaticly, altering the balance of all the 1E modules considerably. I don't know that it was really a bad thing other than dealing with the older material in relation to it though. With the freedom I had given to casters with the use of spell slots rather than pre-memorized spells, casters were stronger, so having stronger fighters wasn't something I was against.

Given that spellcasters were changed, the inter-party balance may have remained the same, but suddenly monsters were at a disadvantage. I've hated weapon specialization since day one.

Rogues were really the only ones that lost out since there really wasn't much I was able to do to improve them (other than enchanted lockpicks). That didn't stop them from being popular though.

I wish they were more popular in my games!

Nobody ever seemed to want to play a thief, outside of one non-regular player. Fighters, yes. Wizards, hell yeah! Rangers or paladins? Absolutely, if you had the stats! Monks? Well, at least one regular guy wanted one. Barbarians? Again, we had two regulars who liked them. Druids? Oh, those were to be savored by all! But thieves? Nobody wanted one. To this day I have no idea why.

I've also been challenged in the past for having decent rolls and been able to reproduce them.

Mira's got loaded dice! Mira's got loaded diiiiice!

[Varl]

I have actually seen rolls that good before, rolled up in front of the group. I've also been challenged in the past for having decent rolls and been able to reproduce them. So I wouldn't assume cheating based on the stats.

I've never had a problem with a player that gets phenomenally lucky at the table, particularly new players that I don't know. My mistake was that I shouldn't have allowed him to roll up his own characters at home, but the reason I do that is so actual game time hours aren't spent creating characters. I thought I could trust most people to generate legitimate characters, but I guess that I'm too trusting. Plus, this particular player never gave me the vibe that he legitimately rolled those numbers, as I can read people pretty well from their body language and behavior, and I never got any signs from him that he had.

Experiences like this have spoiled me to trusting players ever again with their own stat generation. They can create everything they want about the character in advance, but leave the stats blank. If they choose something and don't qualify for it when they roll their ability scores at game time, too bad. They'll have to play something else.

The problem about 'fudging' results during play is a bigger issue, other people don't like it and if it's allowed to go on, it will cause problems. I have had things go to extremes when a player did that, looking back I probably should have intervened up front and kicked the guy out rather than let the rest of the group destroy his character and get him really pissed off. (though it did cause him to leave the group which was the desired result)

I know. Cheating is my number one gaming pet peeve, but I give people one benefit of the doubt, even when reports are from trusted friends. Two times, however, and you're not invited back. He's already been caught once by another player, so he's on thin ice this next session.