News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

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News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

I was discussing the rules the other day with a new player. And you know what? Putting it into perspective, level drain is NOT all that bad, which is what I've been saying for years. Let's look at it in perspective.

First, what happens when you are level drained? According to the rules (2E DMG, pg. 73):

"The character's experience points drop to halfway between the minimum needed for his new (post-drain) level and the minimum needed for the next level above his new level."

Note the word "halfway". In other words, a 10th level fighter who gets hit by a wight drops down to 9th level. However, he only loses half a level (technically). He would drop to half way between 9th and 10th.

A fighter needs 250,000 xp to hit 9th level and 500,000 xp to hit 10th level.

So let's say our hero just hit 10th level and has exactly 500,000 xp. A wight hits him. He does not drop down to 250,000 xp. Instead, he is now half-way in between. He has 375,000 xp and needs just 125,000 xp to regain 10th level, not 250,000.

With things like spectres and vampires it hurts more, but even then it's a matter of losing 1.5 levels, not 2 levels. Our 10th level fighter gets hit by a vampire and he drops to halfway between 8th and 9th level.

Now, how harmful is this to the character? Well, a few less hit points, maybe a thaco penalty, if a wizard perhaps a few less spells memorized. So for awhile, the affected (drained) character functions and goes on adventuring at a slightly lower level than normal, and gradually - with no expenditure of magic, treasure, or wealth - he becomes his old self, totally restored.

However (and this is the most important point), that is all self-correcting! All of those problems and penalties are fixed by doing nothing other than what the character would do anyway...go adventuring!

In contrast, let's look at petrification.

First, being petrified immediately takes the PC out of play. He doesn't continue playing/adventuring at a slightly reduced level. He is simply a worthless (if well adorned) statue. He must make a system shock roll from the stress of being turned to stone. If that fails, he is dead (even if someone later manages to turn him back to flesh). Even if the system shock roll is successful, the petrified character in any case needs someone with access to a stone-to-flesh spell to turn him back into living flesh. Assuming he makes yet another system shock roll, which is needed to survive the shocking transition from stone to flesh form. And if he fails that one, or the earlier one, then in either case he's going to need someone to get him to a cleric who can cast raise dead. And if they can't get his corpse to a priest in a few days, he's out of luck and stays dead. Assuming they do reach a cleric of high enough level to raise him there is the issue of alignment. Is there a church of proper alignment that would even be willing to raise him? And if so, how much are they going to charge...because it certainly won't be free! Considering a regenerate spell to replace a lost limb costs 20,000 gp (DMG, pg. 113), I'd say the cost for raising the dead is at least that high, maybe double that. And even then, the character is probably going to be bound to a quest for the favor. Once the spell (raise dead) is cast, the character now needs to make a successful resurrection survival roll. If that fails, he's forever dead.

If any one of those things are not available or fail...a stone-to-flesh spell, two system shock rolls, access to a cleric of proper alignment with the ability to cast a raise dead spell within the short time frame, a successful resurrection survival roll, lots of cash, and the agreement to go on a quest...the character is finished. Roll up a new one.

Even if he accomplishes all this and is raised, he loses a point of CON, perhaps has fewer hit points, and is less likely to survive a future shock or be raised again. Plus, when he is raised he has just 1 hp and needs days (perhaps weeks) of bed rest. AD&D is not 3E. You don't jump up out of your death bed and go into combat. You have to rest and recuperate.

And just how the hell did they manage to get that 1,000 lb. statue out of the dungeon and back to town to the wizard who can cast stone-to-flesh?

Being petrified really sucks! :evil:

How about artificial aging? Assuming the character has been adventuring for years and has reached 10th level, he is likely in his late 20's at the very youngest, and more likely in his 30's or 40's. A ghost touches him, aging him 30 or 40 years. Now he's in a much older age bracket. If he hits 60 years old (and likely will) he loses a point each of DEX and CON, and two STR points. This can adversely affect his thaco, damage bonus, ability to open doors or bend bars, lessen his ability to lift and carry things, makes him easier to be hit in combat, makes him more vulnerable to surprise, penalizes his abilities with missile weapons, lowers his hit points, lessens his ability to survive system shocks (petrification, aging, etc), and makes it less likely he can be raised from the dead.

Worse yet, unless he has access to a potion of youth (or a rare wish spell), the aging is permanent. There is no de-aging spell in AD&D. A potion of longevity only restores at most 12 years and on average just 6 years. Probably not gonna make much difference.

People no longer recognize him, there may be marital issues, etc. Lots of role-playing aspects affected by this.

And even just dying from getting gored by an ox or breathed on by a dragon entails all the issues listed above concerning being raised from the dead.

So why do people whine about level drain so much? Why do they go through crazy contortions trying to "fix" (i.e. diminish) the effects of level drain? I've never in all my years seen an "alternate" rule for level drain that comes close to the real thing. Every "solution" just waters down the effect of level drains.

My guess? Level drain isn't glamorous. You don't see anything. You're not burned to a crisp by dragon breath, turned into a statue by a medusa's gaze, or trampled under the feet of the mighty tarrasque. It's just more subtle. It feels like the character is going backwards (ie must re-cover lost ground).

But so what? It sucks, yeah, for sure. On the other hand, it is far less harmful, debilitating, or career-ending than being petrified, aged, or even killed by the numerous ways one can die in AD&D.

I just don't see the problem with level drain.
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Post by Beowulf »

I just don't think it makes any common-sense sense. It's designed to whack you with pure game mechanics, attacking from the formal structure of the rules instead of something that's reasonable from a real-world point of view. It's the game mechanics version of losing your car driver's license for being drunk on a jet ski- it just strains the suspension of disbelief for me. It's a stark reminder of the machines working behinds the scenes and intrudes on the actual game.

JMOHO.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

It's always made sense to me. The person's life force is being drained. I've always likened it to material written by Carlos Castaneda (his most famous book is Journey to Ixtlan) and the concept of "personal power". Translated into game terms, as the PC goes up in level he gains more personal power. Consider it a spiritual force, a connection to the universe, a storage of chi, etc. Vampires and certain other undead drain off this life force, leaving the victim temporarily weakened. It takes time to regenerate the chi or re-establish the link to the universe or re-connect with that spiritual energy.

The only thing I don't like about level drain is how it slows the game. Gotta re-calculate spells, hit points, etc. But other than that, I think it's a good mechanic. Otherwise, it works fine I think. It reflects the weakening of the character from loss of life force, it has a powerful effect, and it's scary. However, it also enhances the game (as far as I see it) because it's not something you just "cast a spell and fix". Messing with higher level undead should be and is horrifying because it can result in loss of ability, a weakening of the character, that lasts a long time. That makes is something to dread.

On the other hand, it's not as nerve-wracking as petrification or death or artificial aging. You know you're going to get better eventually, without spending one copper piece or casting one spell. You just keep on keeping on, and you regain what you lost.

Comparing other forms of harm in AD&D (artificial aging, petrification, death in general), level drain is the most benign and easily fixed of the various setbacks, and the only one that does not entail or require massive expenditures of money, magic, and luck to achieve a reversal of the problem.

I still think the reason people hate it so much is that it's so esoteric. Being turned to stone, that's easy to understand in real terms. Being poisoned, being crushed to death, being electrocuted...these things are simple to understand. Losing levels doesn't "have an easy translation" so to speak. It's harder to wrap your mind around what it really happening in non-game terms. I think that's really the reason it's so reviled.

As I always bring up though - most of my players, especially my first group, despised artificial aging above and beyond all else (petrification, level drain, poison, etc).
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Post by Mira »

As Beowulf mentioned, the way it's done just doesn't make sense to me. I prefer the way (horrors!) that 3E and Pathfinder do it with negative levels. That's a form of debilitation that is there, but you don't have to recalc anything. It's nasty if you don't get it taken care of, since you are effectively lower level, and somewhat worse in that it takes more XP to reach your old level (since the new levels to offset the negative levels cost more XP). ie a 5th level with 2 negative levels is effectively 3rd level, but still has to reach 7th level XP (7-2=5) to recover to the former level.

It's the debilitating effects that people generally don't like in games, aging is just as bad, but lots of damage? Just heal it and go on. Petrification? Either you're pretty low level and you can roll up another, or someone probably has Stone to Flesh in the group. A straight out death can be preferred, because while Raise Dead has con loss, I don't think Resurrection does. Though the odds that someone has Res are pretty low, Raise Dead is there and is an option. So your con drops a little, it's better than having the recovery of regaining all that XP. Not to mention that it really sucks when there's a big level difference between party members. Makes it hard to come up with stuff that will challenge the high levels without obliterating the lower ones.

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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Mira wrote:
As Beowulf mentioned, the way it's done just doesn't make sense to me. I prefer the way (horrors!) that 3E and Pathfinder do it with negative levels. That's a form of debilitation that is there, but you don't have to recalc anything. It's nasty if you don't get it taken care of, since you are effectively lower level, and somewhat worse in that it takes more XP to reach your old level (since the new levels to offset the negative levels cost more XP). ie a 5th level with 2 negative levels is effectively 3rd level, but still has to reach 7th level XP (7-2=5) to recover to the former level.
I missed something. So in 3E/Pathfinder, you lose xp but not levels or abilities? :shock: I would argue that makes even less sense than standard level drain in the first place. :?
It's the debilitating effects that people generally don't like in games, aging is just as bad, but lots of damage? Just heal it and go on. Petrification? Either you're pretty low level and you can roll up another, or someone probably has Stone to Flesh in the group.
True, but even if someone in the group has stone to flesh, you still need to successfully roll 2 system shock rolls. And god forbid, what happens if a part of the petrified victim is broken off while petrified?
A straight out death can be preferred, because while Raise Dead has con loss, I don't think Resurrection does.
In AD&D, every death has CON loss and requires a resurrection survival roll. (Wasn't sure if this was stated outright in the resurrection spell, so I checked, and it is). Worse yet, the casting of resurrection ages the caster 3 years, which requires a system shock to survive, otherwise the caster of the resurrection drops dead from casting resurrection! :shock:

Even if the casting priest survives, he needs 1 day of absolute bed rest for every level or HD of the person he resurrected.
Though the odds that someone has Res are pretty low, Raise Dead is there and is an option. So your con drops a little, it's better than having the recovery of regaining all that XP. Not to mention that it really sucks when there's a big level difference between party members. Makes it hard to come up with stuff that will challenge the high levels without obliterating the lower ones.
I've heard that argument a lot (mainly when coming from the 3E perspective), but it doesn't seem to hold water. You usually don't get the same PC dying each time, so this time the fighter dies, maybe next time it's the cleric, then the thief, etc. In my experience, the characters all end up within +/- 1 or 2 levels of one another in any case, which works fine. I've personally never had a party where all the PCs were at the same level, at least not after they started gaining levels.

Me, I'd prefer losing a level and being able to regain everything I lost just by continuing to do what I was gonna do anyway, rather than lose a CON point and have fewer hit points, lower CON check ability, lesser chance to survive a system shock or to be successfully raised next time, etc.

Plus, there is no spell that can raise an ability score in AD&D.

Restoration, for example, only restores lost levels.

Your only chance is to find a magical tome that raises an ability score, or to to gain access to a wish spell.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

A few more points and thoughts...

Not sure if anyone else does this, but on an occasion where a PC gains access to a restoration spell, I allow it to bring him back to full xp. Here's how the spell normally works.

Fighter XP

9th = 250,000 xp
10th = 500,000 xp

Let's say a 10th level fighter who currently has 700,000 xp (just 50,000 xp short of 11th level) is drained by a wight from 10th level down to 9th level. Going by the exact wording of the DMG for level drain, he is now 9th level, but half-way between 9th and 10th. So he now has exactly 375,000 xp.

He finds a cleric willing to cast a restoration spell. By the book, he is now raised back to exactly 10th level, at 500,000 xp. As written, the character suffers a 200,000 xp penalty, in that he is now once again 10th level, but he is now 250,000 xp away from 11th, not 50,000 xp like he was before being drained.

I think this is unfair, especially given that both the PC and the caster must age 2 years from the casting of restoration, and each must make a successful system shock roll to survive that aging. On top of the cost of the spell itself.

So I allow it to return the character to the exact xp he had before, plus any he earned after the drain. So our fighter would be restored to 700,000 xp, plus whatever xp he earned between the time he was drained and the time he was restored.

The other point I wanted to make is that level draining undead is supposedly in the game to simulate (enforce?) the horror of un-death. Undead are supposed to be terrifying. I mean, they've come back from the dead and are in a most torturous, un-natural state. PCs see a tough monster like a dragon or a beholder and in their minds they're saying: "Oh hell yeah, lots of xp, lots of treasure!" Put them in a room with a vampire or spectre and in their minds it's more lile "Oh shit, don't let it touch me, don't let it touch me, let's get the hell out of here!".

It does the job.

:twisted:
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Post by Mira »

A negative level when it's applied, causes a lose of 5 hit points and reduces your level effectiveness. There is no XP loss at all.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/s ... ive-Levels

I like the way the negative levels weaken your character, but don't make them 'forget' anything. They still hurt, but in a way that makes more sense to me.

It's been my experience, that people very rarely only lose one level. If it was just one, I wouldn't be as concerned, but when you lose more than just a couple, the level difference between characters is massive. (4-7 levels is about the usual number that seems to happen all the time)

I do use the same approach as you do for Restoration, it is absurd to have such a high cost and have it only restore one level. In our games, restoration restored everything back to normal. It wasn't cheap, but it was effective. So the PC would lose a lot of money, but be functional again.

Hitting a PC in the wallet is usually a penalty players will accept, a penalty to XP on the other hand is a penalty for playing the character correctly in most cases. The fighters are the ones that are most likely to get drained, as well as being the most likely to take damage. (although a smarter undead which can move about more freely, like a vampire, may hit the spellcasters first. I also dislike the touch AC being different than normal AC that is in Pathfinder, it makes sense for things like lightning, but not for anything else)

There's also the issue for ME, that I don't want undead to be feared more than dragons. I like the way dragons are portrayed in older stories, one dragon can devastate ARMIES of people. (Record of the Lodoss War, which is based on original D&D has them doing that) My dragons are FAR stronger than what is portrayed in the MM, and people rightfully feared them. I did use a lich that haunted the PCs for years of play, but it was more of a mastermind that used underlings for various things, it was a few years of play before the players actually found out about the existance of it :D

I will admit to a strong bias against undead, in my mind, a lich is 'frozen' at the moment of death, it can't learn new things really. It is an existence, not a bonus, something that one would only undertake if you were determined to cheat death.

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Post by Beowulf »

I guess the silly thing to me is that your health, strength and vitality is completely unchanged, yet for some reason you can't put your finger on how to pick a given lock, perform a certain fancy sword flourish or understand that scroll you understood yesterday. It really is just attacking an element of the game mechanics! To me it feels like a videogame where you can kill gods barehanded but can't open a door because the designer didn't think of it. It's the same failure of the suspension of disbelief where a PC can fall 50 feet, dust themselves off and kill 20 goblins where a 0-level guy simply dies, even if they're the same size, race, age, etc.
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Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:50 am The only thing I don't like about level drain is how it slows the game. Gotta re-calculate spells, hit points, etc. But other than that, I think it's a good mechanic. Otherwise, it works fine I think. It reflects the weakening of the character from loss of life force, it has a powerful effect, and it's scary. However, it also enhances the game (as far as I see it) because it's not something you just "cast a spell and fix". Messing with higher level undead should be and is horrifying because it can result in loss of ability, a weakening of the character, that lasts a long time. That makes is something to dread.
This is why when characters level up, i TRACK what HP, spells, wpn/non-weapon profs etc that they earn.. SO if they do get drained, its a SIMPLE quick look at the tracker to see what to remove..
Comparing other forms of harm in AD&D (artificial aging, petrification, death in general), level drain is the most benign and easily fixed of the various setbacks, and the only one that does not entail or require massive expenditures of money, magic, and luck to achieve a reversal of the problem.
Exactly you just go back out adventuring.. AND YOU do not lose your gear, unlike with other things!
True, but even if someone in the group has stone to flesh, you still need to successfully roll 2 system shock rolls. And god forbid, what happens if a part of the petrified victim is broken off while petrified?
OR telekinesised into the air and dropped, so it shatters!
In AD&D, every death has CON loss and requires a resurrection survival roll. (Wasn't sure if this was stated outright in the resurrection spell, so I checked, and it is). Worse yet, the casting of resurrection ages the caster 3 years, which requires a system shock to survive, otherwise the caster of the resurrection drops dead from casting resurrection! :shock:

Even if the casting priest survives, he needs 1 day of absolute bed rest for every level or HD of the person he resurrected.
Plus with resurrection, since its coming from one of the HIGHEST priests of that god, you can bet your left nut, that he's not just going to be doing it just "Cause you have coin'. HE is not a 'reso-vendo-matic".
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
This is why when characters level up, i TRACK what HP, spells, wpn/non-weapon profs etc that they earn.. SO if they do get drained, its a SIMPLE quick look at the tracker to see what to remove..
That's probably the best way to go with it, but even still it's a real slow down in the game. For example, spells. It's easy enough when a PC wizard loses a level and loses access to say all 5th level spells. He simply can't cast any 5th level spells on his sheet. But when he loses a level where say he can now only cast three 4th level spells instead of four 4th level spells, how to determine which one he loses? Going deeper, let's say he learned 2 new 3rd level spells when he hit a certain level (say 6th level), then at his new level (4th - he was hit by a vampire) he may only lose 1 spell at that level. So which of the two spells does he lose? It seems to me that the only effective way is to save the character sheet from each level so that the player can swap out sheets to know without lots of crossing out and re-determining, or slowing play.
Exactly you just go back out adventuring.. AND YOU do not lose your gear, unlike with other things!
Exactly! No one likes level drain, especially PCs/players. Even most of my players who fear artificial aging or ability score loss far more than level drain, they still dread level drain. Because it sucks. Just like aging or losing a point of STR, etc. But they do realize it is the most easily fixed. Most people I've argued this with at say DF or elsewhere, never seem to realize that you really only lose 0.5 to 1.5 levels, not 1 to 2 levels, when you get drained. If you lose a level, per the 2E PHB:

"The character's experience level drops to halfway between the minimum needed for his new (post-drain) level and the minimum needed for the next level above his new level."

- 2E PHB, pg. 104

Emphasis mine. So say a wizard who is at 4th level (10,000 xp needed) gets drained by a wight. He drops down to halfway between the level needed for his new level (5,000 xp for 3rd level) and what he needs to go back up to 4th level (10,000 xp). So halfway between 5,000 and 10,000 is 7,500. Those are his current xp. He needs to re-earn only half a level, not a full level, to be restored to his 4th level abilities. In order to regain 4th level from 3rd level (post-drain) he needs only 2,500 xp, not 5,000 xp.

Now granted, I do understand that if the wizard is halfway between 4th and 5th level (at 15,000 xp), then yes, he loses a fill level in terms of xp. So it does take him longer to reach 5th level. But he regains 4th level in half the time it originally took to go from 3rd to 4th level.

Reversing artificial aging (10 years for example, from the sighting of a ghost or worse, 10-40 years if it touches you) is virtually impossible outside of a Monty Haul campaign, and a generous Monty Haul at that! Even then, all those youth potions tend to backfire.
OR telekinesised into the air and dropped, so it shatters!
I terrorized a party once when they came to an island with several medusa, and they saw dozens of statues of previous victims, all smashed to some degree - missing heads, cracked in half, etc. They realize the medusa were destroying their petrified victims so they could never be restored to life.
Plus with resurrection, since its coming from one of the HIGHEST priests of that god, you can bet your left nut, that he's not just going to be doing it just "Cause you have coin'. HE is not a 'reso-vendo-matic".
Exactly! You'd better have a damned good reason for that church to resurrect you. I remember one game where the player begged the other players to get his character resurrected. I forgot which church they went to, but the priests refused. "What concern is this person's life to [insert name of whatever god the church followed]?" The player suggested to the other players to tell the priest that he would convert to that religion and go on a quest for the church. The player had played that character from 1st through I think it was 12th level, so he really wanted to bring that character back. The other players suggested to the priest that the dead PC might be willing to convert to their religion and become a powerful advocate for their god. So the priests used speak with dead, asked him whether, if he was resurrected by the church, he would convert to that religion, tithe to the church, work for the church, go on a major quest for the church. "YES, YES YES!" he said! :lol:

So after donating fuck-tons of gold, a few magic items, swearing to convert to the religion and agreeing to be geased to go on a holy quest, they resurrected him. Damn near bankrupted him too! :lol:
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:45 pm Garhkal wrote:
But when he loses a level where say he can now only cast three 4th level spells instead of four 4th level spells, how to determine which one he loses? Going deeper, let's say he learned 2 new 3rd level spells when he hit a certain level (say 6th level), then at his new level (4th - he was hit by a vampire) he may only lose 1 spell at that level. So which of the two spells does he lose? It seems to me that the only effective way is to save the character sheet from each level so that the player can swap out sheets to know without lots of crossing out and re-determining, or slowing play.
On the "which spell does they lose from their mind', i leave THAT to the player to pick. For what they lose from knowing,that's tracked.. If they learned two spells when they leveled, they Lose both when they LOSE those same two spells, when they get drained.
Exactly! No one likes level drain, especially PCs/players. Even most of my players who fear artificial aging or ability score loss far more than level drain, they still dread level drain. Because it sucks. Just like aging or losing a point of STR, etc. But they do realize it is the most easily fixed. Most people I've argued this with at say DF or elsewhere, never seem to realize that you really only lose 0.5 to 1.5 levels, not 1 to 2 levels, when you get drained. If you lose a level, per the 2E PHB:
I've also argued that with folks, to no avail..
Reversing artificial aging (10 years for example, from the sighting of a ghost or worse, 10-40 years if it touches you) is virtually impossible outside of a Monty Haul campaign, and a generous Monty Haul at that! Even then, all those youth potions tend to backfire.
O the DM (like i have) has made a spell (RESTITUTION) for combatting aging.
I terrorized a party once when they came to an island with several medusa, and they saw dozens of statues of previous victims, all smashed to some degree - missing heads, cracked in half, etc. They realize the medusa were destroying their petrified victims so they could never be restored to life.
One of the scariest groups of of gamers i was part of, was when the DM set up an area we THOUGHT was inhabited by a possible medusa, but when we saw statues all broken up (other than the female statues), it scared us even more, as that would mean we wouldn't be brought back if we got petrified.. And when the BBEG was revealed (it was just a vampire who took over the area, and HATED seeing all the statues around so broke them, other than the female ones, as it reminded him of what he lost in undeath).. You could FEEL the palpable sighs of relief from us all.. TILL WE REALIZED "SHIT it is a vampire. we fucked up not taking a cleric that could turn! SHIT!!!)
Exactly! You'd better have a damned good reason for that church to resurrect you. I remember one game where the player begged the other players to get his character resurrected. I forgot which church they went to, but the priests refused. "What concern is this person's life to [insert name of whatever god the church followed]?" The player suggested to the other players to tell the priest that he would convert to that religion and go on a quest for the church. The player had played that character from 1st through I think it was 12th level, so he really wanted to bring that character back. The other players suggested to the priest that the dead PC might be willing to convert to their religion and become a powerful advocate for their god. So the priests used speak with dead, asked him whether, if he was resurrected by the church, he would convert to that religion, tithe to the church, work for the church, go on a major quest for the church. "YES, YES YES!" he said! :lol:

So after donating fuck-tons of gold, a few magic items, swearing to convert to the religion and agreeing to be geased to go on a holy quest, they resurrected him. Damn near bankrupted him too!
That's something i have had some of my BIGGEST arguments with some folks over.. In how churches often get just treated as vendomatics for what ever spell the players want, SCREW realism, SCREW logic... Just insert coins, and go.
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Halaster Blackcloak
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
On the "which spell does they lose from their mind', i leave THAT to the player to pick. For what they lose from knowing,that's tracked.. If they learned two spells when they leveled, they Lose both when they LOSE those same two spells, when they get drained.
It seems you'd almost have to save old character sheets to prevent a slow down in the game. It really is problematic. But has that sped it up for you? No real slow down in play?
I've also argued that with folks, to no avail..
It's like people don't want to read what the rule actually says. I mean, yes, if you're half way between 4th level and 5th level, then get drained down to level 3rd level, you lose an entire level's worth of xp, but you only need to regain half a level to regain all the scores, spells, powers and abilities you had at 4th level, before the drain happened. So it's really only half a level.
O the DM (like i have) has made a spell (RESTITUTION) for combatting aging.
Oh no, not me! I'd never give my players an easy fix for aging. They gotta do it the hard way - search for a fountain of youth, or an artifact/relic, or perform some stupendous quest on behalf of their god. I think that's why they dread it! :twisted: :lol:
One of the scariest groups of of gamers i was part of, was when the DM set up an area we THOUGHT was inhabited by a possible medusa, but when we saw statues all broken up (other than the female statues), it scared us even more, as that would mean we wouldn't be brought back if we got petrified.. And when the BBEG was revealed (it was just a vampire who took over the area, and HATED seeing all the statues around so broke them, other than the female ones, as it reminded him of what he lost in undeath).. You could FEEL the palpable sighs of relief from us all.. TILL WE REALIZED "SHIT it is a vampire. we fucked up not taking a cleric that could turn! SHIT!!!)
:lol: :lol: :lol: Out of the frying pan and into the fire! LMAO!!!!

I gotta steal that idea! :twisted: :D
That's something i have had some of my BIGGEST arguments with some folks over.. In how churches often get just treated as vendomatics for what ever spell the players want, SCREW realism, SCREW logic... Just insert coins, and go.
Yeah, to me that destroys the very idea of churches. If you're of opposite alignment, you literally have zero chance in hell of obtaining help. If you're of the same alignment but not a member of that church or do no worship that god, you'd better be prepared to either convert to that religion, go on a quest for the church, donate a fuck ton of money or a magical item, or (usually) some combination of all three.

I knew a DM who insisted that anyone hoping to receive high level aid such as restoration, resurrection, etc, from a church had to swear to convert to that religion and serve that god - otherwise, no amount of treasure would suffice. If you didn't worship that god, you didn't receive aid unless you agreed to convert and serve that god. And of course, it meant going on a dangerous quest afterwards to prove your worthiness. And it was always a quest along the lines of - "Go defeat the great wyrm red dragon dwelling in the forests and tithe half the treasure recovered to my church"! Brutal!

But yes, I think it should be that way. Maybe not forced conversion every time, but you have to earn it.
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garhkal
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm It seems you'd almost have to save old character sheets to prevent a slow down in the game. It really is problematic. But has that sped it up for you? No real slow down in play?
YES it has sped things up (IMO at least), though i have to do work to print those trackers up every two or three sessions, when someone levels up..
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm It's like people don't want to read what the rule actually says. I mean, yes, if you're half way between 4th level and 5th level, then get drained down to level 3rd level, you lose an entire level's worth of xp, but you only need to regain half a level to regain all the scores, spells, powers and abilities you had at 4th level, before the drain happened. So it's really only half a level.
I think its more they feel THEIR options matter more than what the Designers actually wrote...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm Oh no, not me! I'd never give my players an easy fix for aging. They gotta do it the hard way - search for a fountain of youth, or an artifact/relic, or perform some stupendous quest on behalf of their god. I think that's why they dread it! :twisted: :lol:
Over on both DF and PAD&D when i posted it, a lot liked it, and i think you were one of those posting (over on planet)...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm:lol: :lol: :lol: Out of the frying pan and into the fire! LMAO!!!!

I gotta steal that idea! :twisted:
Not mine to steal, but it was a fucking COOL twist, none of us expected.. I unfortunately was one of 4 characters out of 8 (6 pcs, 2 hench) who died...
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm Yeah, to me that destroys the very idea of churches. If you're of opposite alignment, you literally have zero chance in hell of obtaining help. If you're of the same alignment but not a member of that church or do no worship that god, you'd better be prepared to either convert to that religion, go on a quest for the church, donate a fuck ton of money or a magical item, or (usually) some combination of all three.
Some churches i can see, just 'taking a fuckton of money/magic.. BUT to me, the FOUR main considerations should be
A) Alignment
B) RACE (a dwarf imo won't be raising a ponsy pointed ear elf..)
C) CLASS. I can't see a cleric who say worships a god of JUSTICE< raising a fucking THIEF.
D) HOW You died.. IE if that above thief died, cause he tried to break into someone's home and the guard got him, good fucking luck, getting a god of justice raising you. A god of mischief might though.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:47 pm I knew a DM who insisted that anyone hoping to receive high level aid such as restoration, resurrection, etc, from a church had to swear to convert to that religion and serve that god - otherwise, no amount of treasure would suffice. If you didn't worship that god, you didn't receive aid unless you agreed to convert and serve that god. And of course, it meant going on a dangerous quest afterwards to prove your worthiness. And it was always a quest along the lines of - "Go defeat the great wyrm red dragon dwelling in the forests and tithe half the treasure recovered to my church"! Brutal!
I remember hearing a story of one DM who did almost the same (though no massive dangerous quest after).. BUT he also kept an eye.. AND IF YOU DID NOT UPHOLD YOUR end of the bargain, he'd have the deity send his AVATAR to reclaim your soul!
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
YES it has sped things up (IMO at least), though i have to do work to print those trackers up every two or three sessions, when someone levels up..
I tend to save character sheets (old ones) but I'm going to have to use this method and make a habit of making sure each sheet is up to date before each PC gains a level. That way I can simply hand them their old sheet. The only thing different will be the magic items, possibly.
I think its more they feel THEIR options matter more than what the Designers actually wrote...
So many of the people on DF are arrogant little fuckers who think they know it all. They also adamantly refuse to admit when they're clearly and incontestably wrong. And if I of all people say the sky is blue or water is wet, it triggers a knee jerk reaction of ridiculously fanatical disagreement that is almost legendary. :roll: It doesn't matter what the rules clearly say, or what Gygax (who created the damned game) says, they refuse to agree. It's so pathetic there that they actually argued to defend an obvious and totally illogical typo in the 2E MM that says vampires exist on both the Positive and Negative Material Planes at the same time. Or that mummies get their power from the Positive Material Plane even when that makes no sense because:

1. No other undead gain their power from the Positive Plane, but rather from the Negative Plane
2. It would mean that the spell Negative Planar Protection would not be able to protect against a mummy's touch (which it does)
3. Gygax himself wrote that it was indeed a typo and that all undead gain their power from the Negative Material Plane

The problem with half the people at DF is that they're not 1/10th as smart, wise, or familiar with the rules as they like to believe.
Over on both DF and PAD&D when i posted it, a lot liked it, and i think you were one of those posting (over on planet)...
Hmmm. I don't recall liking the idea of a spell that reverses artificial aging. I mean, I think it's a logical spell to develop and makes sense to include in the game. We already have spells to reverse death, level drain, petrification, poisoning, and amputation, but none for aging. SO I can see it's a fair thing to create. I just wouldn't use it for my games because it would remove the single greatest fear most of my players have. I wonder why that is, why I've had so damned many players that fear artificial aging more than any other thing including level drain? :?
Not mine to steal, but it was a fucking COOL twist, none of us expected.. I unfortunately was one of 4 characters out of 8 (6 pcs, 2 hench) who died...
That sucks! Were you able to bring the character back (via resurrection,etc)? But yeah, that is a brilliant twist! I love it! :twisted:
Some churches i can see, just 'taking a fuckton of money/magic.. BUT to me, the FOUR main considerations should be
A) Alignment
B) RACE (a dwarf imo won't be raising a ponsy pointed ear elf..)
C) CLASS. I can't see a cleric who say worships a god of JUSTICE< raising a fucking THIEF.
D) HOW You died.. IE if that above thief died, cause he tried to break into someone's home and the guard got him, good fucking luck, getting a god of justice raising you. A god of mischief might though.
I can see real world churches being all about the money because honestly, most are! :lol:

But in the AD&D world, I can't imagine a church where it was all about the money. I agree with your categories. I hadn't thought of race or class, or method of death. Good thinking! Those are also major considerations!
I remember hearing a story of one DM who did almost the same (though no massive dangerous quest after).. BUT he also kept an eye.. AND IF YOU DID NOT UPHOLD YOUR end of the bargain, he'd have the deity send his AVATAR to reclaim your soul!
PCs should not fuck with the gods! :lol:
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garhkal
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Re: News flash: Level drain is NOT that bad!

Post by garhkal »

I'll post a thread of all my new spells.. One for mages, one for priests..
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
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