The Emasculation of 3rd Edition

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The Emasculation of 3rd Edition

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Here is my old original rant about 3E from several years ago, reposted for everyone's pleasure. :wink:

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Emasculate - v. to deprive of strength or vigor; to weaken; to render effeminate; to vitiate by unmanly softness. Synonyms: sissify, undermine, unstrengthen.

Recently, I've begun using the word "emasculate" to describe the effect of 3E on the D&D game. I believe this applies in many ways.

Before I get into this rant, let me be clear...I am not ripping on anyone for their choice of game edition. I don't fault someone just because they play a game or edition I don't like. I am referring to the game itself, the edition, the effect on the game instituted by WOTC. And yes, this is going to be a long one. :wink:

Emasculation is a fitting word to describe 3E. I look back on the days of 1E/2E (which for me is not just the past, but the present and future as well), and I see a tough game where players took great risks to receive great power and great reward. That has changed in so many ways with 3E.

First, I'll address the idea of mortality. In earlier editions there was the possibility of death. Death as in real world death, ie you die, you are not coming back, end of life, end of story. That concept was reflected in several game mechanics such as the CON limit on resurrections and the Resurrection Survival Roll.

For those of you unfamiliar with earlier editions, there used to be an absolute limit on the number of times you could die and be raised or resurrected, and that number was your CON score. If your CON score was 10, then you could only die and be raised 10 times. After that, you stayed dead, period. Each time you died, you had to make a Resurrection Survival Roll to see if you could come back at all. It mattered not if it was your 10th death, your 5th, or even your very 1st death. Each and every time you died, if an attempt was made to raise or resurrect that character, you had to roll your resurrection survival roll. If you failed, the character was permanently dead, period, end of story. Only godly intervention by the DM could change that fact, and such action was rarely if ever taken in a well run game. And each time you came back, you lost a point of CON permanently, which lowered your Resurrection Survival Roll percentage for next time. In other words, each death made the next death more likely to be a permanent death, as in "ok, roll up a new character, this one ain't comin' back!". Each death became progressively harder to come back from.

Death was a true risk, an actual threat, something to be avoided at all costs. Why? Because any death, even your first, could be your last. Those two mechanics, the CON limit on resurrections and the Resurrection Survival Roll were put into the game to give a sense of mortality. In other words, they made the characters mortal. There was no question that if you died, there was a good chance you were not coming back. And there was the knowledge that even if you came back, there was a limit...eventually your luck would run out and the character would have to be given up for dead, permanently. It was inevitable.

This threat, this mechanic, was totally and utterly dismissed in 3E by WOTC. Why? Why would anyone remove a mechanic that provided mortality to characters who were meant to be mortals, unless the intent was to make them immortal, un-killable characters? Yes, I've heard the weak counter-argument that says:

"But Halaster, just because the spell Resurrection exists in the game does not mean the characters can gain access to it."

Yeah, I've heard that time and again. And yet again I say that I am not talking about what the DM can do if he likes, I am talking about the mentality espoused by the very rules themselves, or in this case, the lack thereof. By removing rules that lent a sense of mortality to characters, the rules encourage the mentality that favors unlimited resurrections. Bottom line, those spells were put into the game because people expect to have a chance of raising a character who dies. The very existence of the spell argues for the intent of using it, otherwise why include it at all?

The difference is that in earlier editions, you could make the spell available without it being a sure thing. Death was still a risk because even when the DM allowed access to those spells, it did not ensure your continued survival. At any time, you could fail that roll, and you were dead. It also simulated the idea of fate and the will of the gods by not forcing the DM to decide in every case whether or not to allow a character to come back from the dead via allowing or disallowing access to a spell. That's not something a DM should be forced to decide constantly.

By removing the risk of permanent death altogether, the game becomes emasculated. It's not dangerous in the sense that the rules always allow for yet another resurrection, yet another raise dead, yet another push of the reset button on a video game character. Inherent in the rules themselves is no concept of ultimate mortality. Nothing kills you forever, and there is never any chance that an attempt to raise the dead fails simply because there is no game mechanic to govern this...if you cast the spell, you come back from the dead, 100% guaranteed.

Emasculation. Weaken the game, sissify it. All I have ever heard from the 3E crowd that backs the 3E rules is that they "never liked the idea of dying based on a dice roll". That's faulty logic. What they object to is the idea of staying dead, because they want immortal characters. A single die roll can cause death from a dragon's breath, or a wizard's power word, or the stroke of the enemy's sword. The only difference is that the in all those cases, there is a guaranteed "out"...you can always get a Raise Dead or Resurrection spell and come back. Only with the Resurrection Survival Roll was the ultimate fate of your character decided on a die roll. And even then, that depended on the player. If he played the character wisely, the character tended not to die. Poor play resulted in higher likelihood of death. So really the only objection boils down to someone stomping their foot and saying "but I don't waaaaant my character to die!". It's an emasculated way to play. Because there is no chance of permanent death according to the rules themselves, the game is emasculated...it's a weaker version, with less threat, less danger, less risk. It's emasculated, and a sissified way to play. A person who plays a character and who acknowledges that the character is mortal should be mature enough to accept the fact that death is a reality even in the game, that no character is guaranteed immortality, and that sometimes death comes too early for our liking. To rally against that concept is to promote an immature, juvenile attitude towards the game. It's emasculation attitude.

"Weaken the game because I find it too dangerous/risky".

Moving on, we get to the other issues of risk management. In earlier editions, many spells which were very powerful were tempered by risks, costs, and consequences which made the character have to think long and hard about whether or not to use the spell. Let's look at some examples.

Both Petrification and Polymorph cause excruciating and devastating shocks to the person being affected by the them. Imagine having the cells of your body turned to solid stone and back again, and how dangerous that would be. Or having them warped into a chicken form, or a cow's form, having your organs twisted into different shapes, even into organs you never had. That has to be hard on a body. In the old editions, we had something called a System Shock Roll, and it was related to your CON score, the same way that Resurrection Survival Rolls were. The lower your CON, the less likely you were to survive a system shock.

So in vintage games, you did not recklessly turn your dwarf companion into a stone statue in order to batter down a door, because he had to make a System Shock Roll first when he was turned to stone, then again when he was restored to flesh and blood. These were dangerous spells, as spells in mythology were, as they are meant to be. Magic is a risky business, because the people casting them are mere mortals (at least, they are in old editions of the game), and mastery of such magic is not 100%. You also did not polymorph your companions into better fighting forms (perhaps grizzly bears?) just to gain an edge in combat, because again there was a chance those characters would either die from the shock of the spell, or they would permanently gain the mentality of the form they assumed. Either way, it was a risk, a danger. And if you died from failing your System Shock, remember...you also had to roll a Resurrection Survival Roll if you got raised. These spells were nothing to screw around with mindlessly. They were serious issues. Not so in 3E. Again we encounter the emasculation of the game, and the "I don't want any risk" mentality. Some have argued with me (yet another weak argument), that spells cast by your friends should not be dangerous. Why? Just because it's your teammate casting it instead of an enemy wizard? Why should any spell be totally safe anyway? Why should there not be a risk involved with spells that cause severe and unnatural stresses on the body?

Again, the only possible reason to take out all risk associated with these spells is to render them totally safe for the characters to use. No risk involved, no danger...all benefit, no sacrifice or cost. That's emasculation...they gave us a sissy version of D&D geared towards sissy mentality.

"I don't want my fighter to have a chance of dying from being changed from a human to a fly and back again! Not fair! Waaaaahhhh!"

And there's spells like Wish or Gate which age a character artificially. Cast Gate in 2E and you may get a powerful ally...but you also age 5 years. That could very well place you in a new age category in which you would lose a point of STR as well as a point of CON, perhaps also a point of DEX. This would lower your hit points, worsen your Armor Class, it would make your ability to withstand shocks to your system lessened (ie your System Shock Roll goes down) and it made you less able to be resurrected since your Resurrection Survival Roll would go down as well. It was a risky spell for sure. You could technically cast Gate, age 5 years instantly, die from the shock, try to get resurrected but fail because of your lowered Resurrection Survival Roll and never come back. Even if you did get raised, you may come back with less hit points, worse natural AC, etc. Regardless of all that, you are now older than you were. Friends and family may not recognize you. There are all sorts of problems inherent in artificial aging, many of which involved roleplaying and not just game mechanics.

So in earlier editions you did not cast Gate lightly, because it had possibly terrifying consequences. In 3E, we have the emasculation effect yet again. You can cast Gate carefree, as often as you like, because there are no negative side effects. You can't age, you can't die of shock, you can't stay dead because of failing a resurrection roll, etc. The average character, assuming starting his adventuring career at the minimum age of 16 (15+1d4), would take at least a few years of game time to get to 18th level where he could actually cast Gate. Well, it would take that long in any sane game, at least. Assuming he cast Gate 8 times after reaching that level (at say age 20), he would age 40 years. That means he would now be 60, and would lose 3 points of STR, 2 points of CON, and 2 points of DEX. Permanently. Cast it 4 more times and he loses another point each of STR/CON/DEX. That has devastating consequences, no matter what range your ability scores were in.

In 3E we have no such risks. A character who casts Gate 100 times in 3E suffers less detrimental effect than a character casting it once in 2E. In truth, he suffers absolutely no detrimental effect. The same issue comes into play with Haste, Wish, Limited Wish, etc. Emasculation. Obviously, in 3E you are meant to be able to cast devastatingly powerful spells with no cost. Apparently WOTC/3E mentality is that nothing should be costly, risks are to be avoided, so let's make everything risk free and take out every detrimental effect that originally existed to balance the game. Emasculation.

We also look at the various spells like Resurrection, Raise Dead, Regeneration, etc. Back in the old days, a character who died and was raised had to have complete and utter bed rest of 1 day for each day (or part thereof) which he was dead. So a 15th level fighter who died and was raised (again, assuming he made his Resurrection Survival Roll) and who was dead for 3 days needed 3 days of bed rest. During those 3 days he could not memorize spells (had he been a wizard) or fight or do anything strenuous. And he would heal 3 hp per day, meaning after 3 days he'd have a total of 10 hp (he has 1 hp upon being raised, plus 3/day). He's still not up to par for some time. In 3E they threw all that out. A 15th level character who is raised automatically comes back with 15 hp, plus he can jump right back into combat or spellcasting or whatever the very next round. No need for bed rest. And he heals naturally at the rate of 15 hp per day, which back in 2E would be considered regeneration as in the way trolls regenerate. He'd regenerate almost as many hit points per day as a 2E character with a 20 CON (even if the 3E character only had a 10 CON). That's absurd.

And what argument do I see each and every time that this comes up?

"But it's not fun to need bed rest or to spend time healing! Waaahh!!! I want my character to get back to the important stuff, like fighting and getting lots of xp and treasure!"

What an immature attitude, which stems from the very emasculation of the game that I'm speaking of. Apparently 3E mentality demands that nothing which detracts from or slows the jet-paced race up the ladder of level gaining is to be tolerated. There is no sense of roleplaying here, no sense of character development or the need to formulate plans to deal with such powerful setbacks. No, let's just do away with anything which slows the rapid advancement, which in 3E is much faster than any other edition.

And Raise Dead is way too powerful in 3E. It raises the dead with a ton of hit points, it enables them to jump right back into combat, it heals all disease, all insanity, it raises any ability score reduced to 0, and it neutralizes any poison in the body. Also, there is only a 50/50 chance of losing any particular memorized spell. The only thing this spell does not do is wipe the character's ass from when his bowels let loose when he died in the first place! Basically, this 3E spell translated to 2E terms would be a combination of Raise Dead, Neutralize Poison, Cure Critical Wounds, and Heal. And the cost? Zip. Nothing. Just jump right back up and get into combat and keep raking in the xp. Even the 2E spell Resurrection pales in comparison, where the cleric would need 1 day of bed rest for each level of the person he resurrected, and would need to make a system shock roll from the obligatory aging of 3 years which he experiences for casting the spell. Resurrect a 14th level fighter, and after aging 3 years and hopefully surviving your system shock roll, you're bed ridden for two weeks.

So a character that dies in 3E loses a level. Big freaking deal. With the ridiculously fast advancement pace in 3E, that doesn't matter much, and since the same character in a party does not die every time (ie this time it's the wizard who dies, next adventure it may be the thief), there's really no risk of anyone falling far behind. Everyone will still be within +/- a level or two no matter how often people die. Death in 2E had real consequences.

Restoration ages both the caster and the recipient by 2 years, requiring yet another system shock roll for each. At least, it did in 2E.

None of these spells in 3E cost anything. There is absolutely no risk whatsoever involved in casting them. And the argument always boils down to people not wanting to take risks, not wanting to have anything permanently bad happen to their characters.

On top of all this, character regenerate 1 hp/level/day, which is fantastic compared to earlier editions where 3 pt/day was the utmost you could heal resting, regardless of level. They can raise ability scores in 3E every few levels, which makes any ability score loss much less detrimental in the long run.

Ultimately, there is no other conclusion other than that WOTC purposely emasculated the game to cater to the immature mentality that demands immortal characters and favors mindless power gaming over all else. Again, that's not to say powergamers are scum, or that 3E gamers are stupid or anything of the sort. But the bottom line that cannot be avoided is that the 3E rules as WOTC designed them cater to the immature powergamer mentality in which all that matters in an unimpeded, lightning fast pace of power/level accumulation. And in order to cater to that, the game had to be emasculated, because in a real man's world, risks are real, and consequences are accepted and dealt with. 3E is designed for little boys, not men. It's an emasculated version of a once powerful and challenging game.

I salute those who are able to play 3E and make it challenging and provide a fun game, because the rules as they stand, the 3E philosophy, it that of emasculation and a free ride, where consequences are no longer tied to actions, and great power comes at no cost. It's a shame, but it seems even our games reflect our sad culture nowadays, where such mentality is rampant.

Again, if you play 3E, don't come crying that you've just been insulted or offended...that's an emasulated attitude. ;)

I'm not criticizing 3E gamers or even power gamers, I'm eviscerating the mentality that went into the development of 3E, and the attitude the game espouses by the very existence (or rather non-existence) of its rules.
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Post by Sangalor »

Some strong language here but I agree with the conclusions.

I understood the changes were aimed at bridging the disconnect of novel characters like Drizzt and the rules/mechanics which prevented translating the novel action of characters like that into gameplay i.e. the new gamers wanted to be just like Drizzt but discovered that 2nd ed rules didn't quite work that way.

The consequences of the changes were reckless gameplay with little real consequences for characters and damaged the role-playing aspects of the game long-term.

Now with 4th ed welcome to the pseudo-PC game version of D&D. Grrr. :x
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

I've noticed that the discussion about 4E deals a lot with making the game "less complex" (in their words) and more fast-action oriented. My problem with what is in reality the dumbing down of the game is that it hurts everyone. People who are too lazy/dumb to do simple math or to understand words with more than 4 letters in them are encouraged to remain dumb, while those intelligent enough to actually enjoy a complex game are snubbed with something that insults their intelligence.

I still say that the game was best in 1E, where you needed a dictionary to understand half of what Gary wrote. There's nothing wrong with celebrating intelligence, but WOTC seems to prefer to promote laziness and stupidity.
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Post by Sangalor »

I think a balance is required - you don't want it to get too elitist but you don't want it too simple either. I found the 1st/2nd ed seemed to have a solid balance in that regard (and it of course also depends on your DM/PC's).

The action-based emphasis is coming at the expense of the actual role-playing and as I stated before - seems motivated by players saying they want to play these awesome characters similar to what they read in the novels or increasingly play on their PCs. When the rules prevented them they lost interest and turned back to on-line gaming etc.

I can only think that WOTC have observed the on-line gaming community and have banked on being able to tap into that crowd - as to grognards, or even sensible 3.X players they either conform or leave the community.

Additionally, the emphasis on "action" is leading to absurd gaming scenarios - i.e. people being killed during combat, raised on the spot and entering combat the same round with restored special abilities etc. like nothing had happened. And don't get me started on the "feats" and stuff...

Perhaps I'm going to sound like a old snob here but I remember my generation of gamers were avid readers of SciFi/Fantasy literature and that is what inspired alot of them to get into D&D - they were well-read and (generally) intelligent. Now your lucky if you can find a young gamer, esp. if they are an online gamer, who has actually read any of the classic fantasy/sci-fi literature or indeed even played any of the legendary 1st/2nd ed modules.

(Rant over!) :D
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Post by Brickman »

Well reasoned arguments, especially regarding game mechanics. I also think that the art in 3e contributed greatly to the emasculation of that version.

We went from line art, sketches and realism in 1e to caricatures of superbeings wielding unrealistic weapons in 3e.

Since it's the art that creates the first impression for an RPG, until you get into the nitty gritty details of mechanics, this can affect how the reader perceives the game immensely.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Sangalor wrote:
Additionally, the emphasis on "action" is leading to absurd gaming scenarios - i.e. people being killed during combat, raised on the spot and entering combat the same round with restored special abilities etc. like nothing had happened.
Exactly! I wrote a post once about that, can't remember where it is. A 3E group is dungeon crawling, they all have 100 hp, and they end up worn down to the point where in 1E or 2E they'd have long since retreated to the surface and spent a few days healing if they had any hope of going on.

In 3E, the party simply ducks into an unused room, bars the door for a round, casts mass heal, and viola! It's no different than hitting a reset button on a video game. Everyone is instantly restored to full health and vigor. No risk of negative side effects, no risk of spell failure, and no meaningful monetary cost. :roll:
Perhaps I'm going to sound like a old snob here but I remember my generation of gamers were avid readers of SciFi/Fantasy literature and that is what inspired alot of them to get into D&D - they were well-read and (generally) intelligent. Now your lucky if you can find a young gamer, esp. if they are an online gamer, who has actually read any of the classic fantasy/sci-fi literature or indeed even played any of the legendary 1st/2nd ed modules.
Most gamers these days (at least most of the ones I've talked to) have never read any ancient mythology. To them, Hercules is nothing more than a modern character invented to balance out Xena. They haven't read the Greek myths. To them, Thor is a superhero with a gold beard, and they have never read the Norse myths. If you mention the name Michael Moorecock to them, they think you're talking about a porn star or something. :roll: :lol:

They cannot point to the source(s) of the archetypes of D&D/AD&D, and indeed they aren't even aware that the game is patterned after archetypes. They don't even know what an archetype is! :shock:

When you cater to the lowliest common denominator, that's what you breed. The lowliest commoner.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Brickman wrote:
We went from line art, sketches and realism in 1e to caricatures of superbeings wielding unrealistic weapons in 3e.
So true! The two-side swords like Darth Maul, the triple-headed axes, the swords that are 23" taller than the character wielding it...it's all crap!
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Post by Sangalor »

Brickman

I hadn't really considered the art before but I can see how it does impact on your perception/expectations of the game. Looking at a lot of the modern stuff it almost strikes me as comic-book art (and not good comic art like B Windsor-Smith/Kirby etc) - and this leads to comic book style play (perhaps that a bit too harsh?)
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

I've also noticed an odd trend amongst fans of 3E and 3.5E (and presumably 4E). They really don't like hearing about how their edition(s) is (are) almost completely unrelated to the real thing. They always insist that 3E or 3.5E is the same game it's always been. It's as if they're afraid to admit that it is an entirely different game, with entirely different goals, with an entirely different base foundation and mindset, etc.

They no longer even cling to the name the game is derived from anymore. It's referred to as simply "3.5" or "4.0". Like "2000", XP", and "Vista". It's like talking about a software upgrade, not a roleplaying game. :roll:
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Post by jeffx »

I'm new here. But I can't let that stop me from sticking my foot in it. I read this thread twice now and want to comment on a couple things. In case you are wondering, I am currently running a 2e game in the Atlanta area (that's a plug looking for players). At one point I thought I was in a 3.5 edition game and later learned it was more of a bastardization than anything else. So I have never played 3 or 3.5. I have my 4e books on pre-order and am looking forward to looking at them.

I think the emasculation points are well made. Mechanics impact the feel of a game. But I can't count the number of times I played in older edition games that ignored most of the rules that have been removed in 3e to emasculate it. So that mentality has been around long before 3e. People will play they style of game they want regardless of what edition, or name, is on their rule books. How many DMs can honestly say they don't have house rules to work around a rule they don't like?

I want simplified rules. Seriously. I am been trolling on boards bashing 4e and the dumbing down of the rules for a while now. I for one WANT simpler rules. I don't know if simpler, in this case, is better but generally simpler is better. I want to focus on plot, story, and character and not chart, graphs, and record keeping. Does that make the game more like a video game? Does that make me less intelligent than I was when I played 2e? I just know I will take a complex plot and simple rules over complex rules and simple plot.

I also think (probably more of a hope) that 4E will bring people to the table again. I am actually excited about my 4E books coming in. I also don't spend the time complaining about how the new generation isn't as smart. I try to do something about it. I am trying to organize a D&D game day in my local library this summer to bring kids to the game. I will be using 4E to do it. The divide of "it was better when i was 15 than it is when you are 15" doesn't help. I am working up recommended reading and movie watching to enhance the participant's feel for the game.
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Post by Brickman »

I did run out and buy the 3.0 books (after a long break from the game, college, family, etc) when they first came out. But after reading through them and rounding up a batch of friends to play a few times, we quickly moved back to the old 1e and 2e books due to a number of reasons.

Now, I really don't think much about current iterations of D&D. I have so much 1e/2e material on paper and PDF that I'll never have to buy another RPG book or supplement again. And there are still 1e/2e books I haven't even thoroughly read yet.

3.5, 4.0 and whatever comes next kind of falls into the same category as Pokemon or WoW or whatever. It may be interesting to read about but I would never fork over the cash to completely revamp what I already like, know and possess.

I think WotC knows this too. Which is why they go for the cartoony, superheroey, coddle the munchkin rulebooks and marketing. They don't care about people like us, rather they want to attract and indoctrinate the tweens that will be spending their parents cash until at least 18.

I could be wrong but that's my current perception.
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Post by Blackmote »

I'd just like to welcome jeffx to the forums. Good to see another metro Atlanta native here. :)

back to the subject matter... I have my own opinions of older editions vs. newer editions. I've tried the newer editions. And I prefer the older editions - specifically the 2E years. Call it stubborness, call it unwilling to change, but I call it good stuff that I cut my teeth on and perfected over the history of 2E.

With the help of a few members of this board, I am starting up an AD&D campaign into UnderMountain very soon. The ruleset we'll be using is a nice blend of AD&D and AD&D 2E. My houserules do nothing to bypass or overwrite existing published rules. There are enough 'options' books out there to allow for practically any type of character race/class combination (within reason and my call). :wink:

As for using 4E to reach 'new' players... that's cool. I can see it being used for just that. I personally have entirely too much money and history tied up in classic AD&D and 2E books to invest in anything new. There are still older players such as myself (and some not so 'older' - heh) who long for the days when character development meant something and not just a stack of stats - which is what 3E did to the game in my own personal opinion.

I've seen some character sheets and some articles on 4E, and it appears they are mutating 3E into something perhaps 'simpler' in their mindset, but not mine. If I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game with actual 'video'. :P

So there. I've said my peace at last. For those who wish to explore 4E, you honestly have my blessing. But WotC/HASBRO received my last dime about 3 years ago.

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Post by Minstrel »

What is it with all you Atlanta people? We need some more gamers in New Hampshire damnit!

Anyway, welcome to the boards jeffx.

If you're looking for an in-print simplified system with the "oldschool feel", I encourage you to give Castles & Crusades a try. It's got all the flavor of AD&D, while using the d20 system stripped down to the basics, minus all the feats and escalated power progression. I imagine it would be much easier to teach to new players also.

This isn't to say that I agree in any way that 3.x is simpler than AD&D. Some base mechanics might be considered more streamlined (use of d20's more consistently for example), and a few, like to-hit mechanics, are commonly considered easier, but hour for hour, I see much more accomplished by AD&D players than 3.x ones due in large part to the additional number crunching required by all the feats, spell effects, etc (all the things that C&C stripped out). I find that the correlation of time spent to get through a given chunk of a game to the simplicity of the system is a fairly good one.

Back to the core subject: I agree that the game started to go downhill before 3e came on the scene. The 2e splat books had me choking on my tongue as I read through them.

With that said, I never buy into the idea that a given group is going to play the way they want regardless of the game system. There is, inarguably, variation between the dynamics of each group, but the rules foster a certain style of play and those who like that style of play gravitate to those rule sets.

You're right: everyone house rules. But if I went out and bought 4e, 3e, etc right now, I'd probably house rule it into something resembling AD&D or C&C. In which case, I'd rather have those products to begin with.
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Post by jeffx »

Blackmote wrote:I'd just like to welcome jeffx to the forums. Good to see another metro Atlanta native here. :)

back to the subject matter... I have my own opinions of older editions vs. newer editions. I've tried the newer editions. And I prefer the older editions - specifically the 2E years. Call it stubborness, call it unwilling to change, but I call it good stuff that I cut my teeth on and perfected over the history of 2E.
Thanks for the welcome! Hopefully I can be of some use around here.

I want to be clear about something. I love 2nd Edition! While, the "red box set" and First Edition will always have a warm place in my heart, 2E is were I grew into the DM I wanted to be. It extended D&D beyond the dungeon. I don't own a single 3/3.5E rulebook. I also see no reason to upgrade rules just because they are released. If you like what you are playing, and can get players, that is all that matters.
With the help of a few members of this board, I am starting up an AD&D campaign into UnderMountain very soon.
If you have more seats I would be interested. I saw the thread in another section but didn't know if it was closed. I'll move me continued questions about it over there.
As for using 4E to reach 'new' players... that's cool. I can see it being used for just that. I personally have entirely too much money and history tied up in classic AD&D and 2E books to invest in anything new. There are still older players such as myself (and some not so 'older' - heh) who long for the days when character development meant something and not just a stack of stats - which is what 3E did to the game in my own personal opinion.
The choice in 4E is primarily a "business" consideration for what I am attempting to do. However is character development less meaningful because of the rules version? In the game I thought was 3.5 (it has skills/feats etc) I hated the character development. However, it wasn't because of the rules. It was because I was playing with a group or people who really are war gamers and their D&D resembles that.

I don't see how a character sheet turns something into a video game. I might change my mind when I get my hands on the newer books, but for now I have a hard time seeing it. What makes a video game so "bad" is the static plot points. I can develop a story plot regardless of the version number, stats, and characteristics on the character sheet.
But WotC/HASBRO received my last dime about 3 years ago.
Was there a new 2e book out 3 years ago?
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Post by jeffx »

Minstrel wrote: With that said, I never buy into the idea that a given group is going to play the way they want regardless of the game system. There is, inarguably, variation between the dynamics of each group, but the rules foster a certain style of play and those who like that style of play gravitate to those rule sets
The game system defines mechanics and setting. Feel of the game is campaign controlled (home brew, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc). Style of play is DM and player controlled. I said in a previous post, on this thread, that 2E extended D&D beyond the dungeon. It brought in non-weapon proficiencies, etc. However, I can still play the same hack and slash game with 2E that I played with the basic rules. If what you say is true, then every 2E DM would play the exact style of game I DM.

If we group all D&D in to a style then I agree. But I don't think anyone really wants to do that.
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Post by Minstrel »

Jeffx - Can't say I'm really following you. I sort of get what you're saying with breaking out the word "feel" from the word "style", although I think doing so muddies the waters of a general sense of the game that we're trying to get at. And I think you're arguing a different point than what I was making, something akin to moving the goalposts. I'm not sure where my arguments at all could lead one to believe an absolute statement that all players of edition X must play alike could be drawn from them.

I didn't say that players had to play a certain edition/game/etc a certain way, but that each game system fosters a certain style of play. I'm talking tendencies, not absolutes. A group is free to ignore that style of play, as you state correctly. That does not mean it isn't encouraged by the system.

If a group wanted to play a silly game, full of monty python references and over the top antics (which I believe fits your definition of style, as a dynamic apart from that imposed by the setting), my guess is they'd play something like Hackmaster. They could play 2e, 3.5, or vampire the masquerade, (many 2e games I've seen WERE in fact quite silly) but Hackmaster would probably be most suited.
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Post by jeffx »

Minstrel wrote: I didn't say that players had to play a certain edition/game/etc a certain way, but that each game system fosters a certain style of play. I'm talking tendencies, not absolutes. A group is free to ignore that style of play, as you state correctly. That does not mean it isn't encouraged by the system.
So what is the encouraged style of 1st Edition? Second Edition? Third Edition?
jeffx wrote: The game system defines mechanics and setting. Feel of the game is campaign controlled (home brew, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc). Style of play is DM and player controlled.
Players can not ignore the style of play. They implement the style.
With that said, I never buy into the idea that a given group is going to play the way they want regardless of the game system.
I will restate my point. First, can you tell me what you mean by "the way they want"?
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Post by Mira »

jeffx wrote:
The game system defines mechanics and setting. Feel of the game is campaign controlled (home brew, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc). Style of play is DM and player controlled. I said in a previous post, on this thread, that 2E extended D&D beyond the dungeon. It brought in non-weapon proficiencies, etc. However, I can still play the same hack and slash game with 2E that I played with the basic rules. If what you say is true, then every 2E DM would play the exact style of game I DM.

If we group all D&D in to a style then I agree. But I don't think anyone really wants to do that.
I've seen how the rule set (3E) completely changed the same setting/game/group. My husband was running a 2E game, then decided to switch it to 3E. Same players, we attempted conversion of the characters from 2E to 3E using the conversion booklet, so same PCs (more or less, I really didn't think my PC was remotely the same under 3E rules) and same setting. It didn't take very long before a couple of the players were going hog wild with the rules and generally making the game completely unfun to play (IMO)

Also, I noted in the minis thread, how you enjoyed being able to play without minis. That's nearly impossible to do with 3E, too much of the combat is based around position. So being forced to deal with that does change the style of play don't you think?

What I really like about 1E/2E is that there are lots and lots of OPTIONAL rules. So if I want to run the game simple, it's not that difficult to do so. I can make it as simple or complex as I want by choosing to add in the rules I want to use. With 3.x, there are loads of rules built into the game in such a way that it's extremely difficult to remove any without it being a major impact. The combat system is so complex that you really must use minis of some kind (which is why they have those little cut-out counters included if you don't have any real minis) to be able to run it properly via the rules.

The difference between 1E and 2E (and original) was not so huge as to make it impossible to play in a similar fashion between those systems. 3.xE really is SO different that I don't believe you come close to the same feel as 1E or original D&D. If you used 2E with all of the Players Option books and all of the rules, then you might be close. But I certainly didn't do that, I didn't use all the rules in 1E either. I like simple, it's much easier to focus on the story when the mechanics aren't getting in the way!

Mira (When it gets to be your turn, they change the rules)
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Post by jeffx »

Mira wrote: Also, I noted in the minis thread, how you enjoyed being able to play without minis. That's nearly impossible to do with 3E, too much of the combat is based around position. So being forced to deal with that does change the style of play don't you think?
Foul! No using my comments from other threads in this one! Pointing out hypocrisy is not fair. :) If you are telling me that you can't (we'll call nearly impossible, impossible for sake of discussion) play 3E without miniatures, I still wouldn't say it changes the style of play. While it certainly does change the system. Is the fact that I have to use miniatures making me incorporate more combat into my game? If not then it doesn't change the style.

I obviously can't speak to your personal experience. I know I would never attempt to convert characters to different rules editions. There is a certain play testing period that goes into a new edition of rules. I wouldn't unleash that on myself or a long running game.
The combat system is so complex that you really must use minis of some kind (which is why they have those little cut-out counters included if you don't have any real minis) to be able to run it properly via the rules.
So if 4e is simple over that that would be an improvement.
The difference between 1E and 2E (and original) was not so huge as to make it impossible to play in a similar fashion between those systems. 3.xE really is SO different that I don't believe you come close to the same feel as 1E or original D&D.
Feel is defined by setting. I have heard horror stories about what they have done to the settings during 3E so I will have to agree. But that is a setting choice not an edition choice.
I like simple, it's much easier to focus on the story when the mechanics aren't getting in the way!
Exactly why I don't have much combat in my games.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Jeffx wrote:
The game system defines mechanics and setting. Feel of the game is campaign controlled (home brew, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc). Style of play is DM and player controlled.
Yes! Debate! :twisted: :wink:

I gotta disagree there to some extent at least. Yes, the campaign setting and DM/player attitude do determine the overall feel of the particular campaign. But I'd argue that the rule set has a lot more to do with it than most people realize at first. This especially applies when players are introduced to a particular edition.

For example...1E encouraged the idea of final mortality, ie you had an absolute limit (equal to your CON score) to the number of times you could be raised or resurrected. There was always the chance that you failed a resurrection survival roll and thus remained dead forever. Not even a wish could help you then.

Players who started playing in 1E feared death, a fear which stemmed from the rules themselves. The rules made it clear that each death could well be your last one, each death made you permanently weaker, and each death made it more likely that you'd die again and likewise less likely to be raised. It was an inevitable, gradual erosion of life that ultimately ended in the certainty of permanent, final death. The only way to avoid the ultimate mortality of a character was to play wisely and intelligently and to do everything one could to avoid dying in the first place. Death was not a mere temporary stumbling block as it is in 3E. It was an actual, real threat of permanent non-continuance for the characters.

Put into an analogy, surviving in 1E was like surviving on the streets in real life. You carry a gun, you avoid situations where you might be at a serious disadvantage, you learn when to avoid fights. You learn to survive. You don't put your faith in the ability of the police to protect you or the paramedics to restore you if you get shot/stabbed/beaten and you stop breathing. You avoid dying, because usually you don't get a second chance.

3E changed all that, and in doing so also changed the attitudes and play style of the players. Now, going back to the analogy, there is no need to carry a gun or to avoid the hostile areas of the city or to retreat when overwhelmed. Everything has been rendered less dangerous. Removing permanent life level drains is akin to removing guns from the gangs. Removing artificial aging is removing their knives. Removing risks from spells like gate or haste is like removing any threat of being hurt by friendly fire or a misfire from your own weapon, or having your own weapon used against you. Removing system shock rolls is akin to padding you with kevlar so that bullets that would have killed you now only break a rib and leave a nasty bruise. The obsession with "balance" and not sending monsters that are too tough is akin to assuring that when you walk down a dark alley, you only encounter the same number of criminals or gang scum as you have friends with you, and they are all of equal fighting ability, so you always have the cards in your favor that you can survive. The removal of the high costs of resurrection and raise dead spells is like having an ambulance with a top-notch surgeon driving with them, following you...ready on a moment's notice to jump out and patch you up. And the proliferation of healing spells is like having 15 paramedics, 12 surgeons, 22 specialists, and 47 nurses on call in that tanker-truck sized ambulance that follows you around 24/7. Removing resurrection survival rolls is akin to having God himself doing the surgery or doctoring, because in 3E, the doctor never loses his patients, ie nobody can die permanently because there is no chance that a resurrection roll will fail since there is no such mechanism. Put back into our analogy, the doctors and paramedics following you around have a 100% rate of success when doing CPR to bring you back from the dead.

If that were the case in real life, then people would have entirely different attitudes towards how they conduct their lives, wouldn't they? If you knew that any health problem you could encounter, any injury you could suffer, even death itself, were quickly, easily, and above all cheaply fixable, would you really worry about jumping out of an airplane at 30,000 feet with a shoddy old parachute, or driving through gang-infested projects, or driving 120mph down the expressway in the rain? No. Would you care whether you clogged your arteries with bad cholesterol because of eating tons of junk food? No. Because the consequences of your actions are much less a deterrent. In fact, they'd be almost no deterrent at all, since nothing you could do could permanently injure or kill you. Immortality has a way of changing attitudes.

So likewise, the 3E rules themselves encourage that type of thinking. Every time I see 3E people playing, it's this nonchalant, flippant attitude. "No problem dude, we'll just raise your ass and you can jump back into combat". :roll:

In fact, looking at the raise dead spell, that tells us something about the mentality espoused by 3E. You no longer get raised with just 1 hp. You no longer have to worry about neutralizing the poison that killed you in the first place, or the disease that caused your demise. You no longer need days of bed rest before jumping back into action. You die in Round 1, you get raised in Round 2, you jump back into combat in Round 3. And it works every time, like a reset button. The challenge, the roleplaying aspect, the whole significance of dying has been removed. You aren't any weaker than when you died (ie no lower CON score, no worse chance to survive next time, etc).

And look at the fast advancement rules. 3E was (admittedly so by the designers) designed to faciliate rocket-fast advancement. Anything that slowed down the fast track to 18th level characters inside of 12 months of game time was removed.

So there's no way we can say that the rules do not determine to a large degree the feel of the game. They do. I have never, in 8 years now, seen or heard of a 3E game being played where it felt like, sounded like, or resembled in any way the feeling of a 1E game. Never.

Now granted, a DM can tweak the rules for 3E and make resurrections harder to come by, but even that cannot replace the fact that if the character is allowed a resurrection, it will work 100% of the time with no chance of failure, and as long as the DM allows it, the character can never truly die.

In 1E/2E, the DM could break that rule, but it was considered a bad idea to do so by the designers themselves. The idea of ultimate mortality beyond the control of even the DM existed. And players responded to that. It caused them to take a totally different outlook on the game.

So yes, the campaign setting determines much of the flavor of the campaign, and the DM/player styles also determine the feel. But the rule set is what encourages a mentality of play, an expectation of what the game is at its core, that cannot be ignored. And this is where 3E emasculates. It removes dangers, threats, challenges. Players no longer have to worry about casting haste on the party every time they get into combat, because there is no risk. They no longer need to worry about whether the cleric has enough healing spells and potions to brave the Dungeon of Doom, because he can always swap them out. They no longer need to worry about foolishly diving into the Portal of Instant Death, because resurrection spells now exist that do not require even a single cell from the foolish PC's body, and there is no danger that the resurrection will fail.

When you remove consequences from actions, there is an inevitable and unavoidable change of perception and attitude towards those actions.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Jeffx wrote:
So what is the encouraged style of 1st Edition? Second Edition? Third Edition?
Here's how I see it...

1E - More oriented towards challenging the players (ie not the characters). Development of players is paramount. Death is severe, common, and dealt out in abundance. A very harsh existence fraught with peril. Self-interest and self-importance was paramount, meaning characters tended to be in it (adventuring) for themselves. Evil was Evil with a capital E as in demon lords and devils. Assassins were considered a PC class because it was about personal power, ie those who dare, win.

2E - More oriented towards challenging the characters (ie not the players). Development of characters is paramount. Death is not encouraged as much as it was in 1E (at least when playing published modules). Less self-interest and more focus on good-aligned PCs and group cooperation/group goals over individual goals. Evil is made more alien (ie tanar'ri and baatezu) and less in-your-face. More ethical than moral dilemmas.

3E - An accountant's dream. Development of numbers and stat blocks is paramount. Nothing but numbers crunching and video game feel. No longer focused on either characters or groups of characters, bur rather stat blocks and how they relate to other stat blocks. Focus on self-aggrandizement through big numbers and "KeWl pOw3Rz" than heroic, noble actions. Pretty much summed up by the phrase "It's all about the numbers".

That's how I see it, anyway.
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Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Minstrel wrote:
If a group wanted to play a silly game, full of monty python references and over the top antics (which I believe fits your definition of style, as a dynamic apart from that imposed by the setting), my guess is they'd play something like Hackmaster. They could play 2e, 3.5, or vampire the masquerade, (many 2e games I've seen WERE in fact quite silly) but Hackmaster would probably be most suited.
A very accurate way of looking at it.

If I wanted to play a game that featured harsh character death at the drop of a hat, a game where I challenged my players, then I'd whip out a 1E adventure and run that.

If I wanted to play a game where I challenged the characters and where the game was not as lethal and character development was valued over player development, then I'd whip out a 2E module.

And if I wanted to get a headache while polishing up my mathematical analysis skills, I'd grab some 3E crap! :twisted: :lol:
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Post by Sangalor »

I'd just to clarify a post I made earlier on younger gamers - I left open the interpretation (or implication if you prefer) that younger gamers are less intelligent than the older generation of gamers. I do not believe this at all, nor would I support such a comment if made by someone else.

I will however stick to my generalisation, that from my own personal experience, the younger generation are less well-read on classic sci-fi/fantasy lit and certainly most of them have never played any of the OOP classic 1st/2nd ed modules.

In an aside - I generally agree with Halaster's characterisations of the style of the various eds.

Also jefffx - you mention that if you couldn't play 3E without miniatures it wouldn't change the style of play. I can't see how you can suggest that the style of play with or without props isn't different? In 1st ed you didn't have to use miniatures. In 3rd ed, if you MUST use miniatures, then your style of play is going to be impacted by virtue of the fact that you are moving beyond the pure imagination of combat to the tactile observation of combat?

What do others think?
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Post by jeffx »

Sangalor wrote: Also jefffx - you mention that if you couldn't play 3E without miniatures it wouldn't change the style of play. I can't see how you can suggest that the style of play with or without props isn't different? In 1st ed you didn't have to use miniatures. In 3rd ed, if you MUST use miniatures, then your style of play is going to be impacted by virtue of the fact that you are moving beyond the pure imagination of combat to the tactile observation of combat?
Because miniatures are an item of mechanics not style or feel. Yes in 3.X, the mechanics I would HAVE to use to play would change. The way I use the mechanics would not HAVE to change.
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Post by jeffx »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:Jeffx wrote:

For example...1E encouraged the idea of final mortality, ie you had an absolute limit (equal to your CON score) to the number of times you could be raised or resurrected. There was always the chance that you failed a resurrection survival roll and thus remained dead forever. Not even a wish could help you then.
This gets a little bit off-topic, but the no final mortality is just an extension of hit points and no wounds. No edition of D&D is about realism.

I'm getting tired. I had a much larger thought about feel, style, and mechanics. I am just having a hard time putting sentences together at the moment.

I'll try again tomorrow.
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